Advice request - MD State Law & Mental Health

bajco · Mar 10, 2016

When does the Involuntary Commitment Process in Maryland trigger Federal 18 and MS Law clauses on no firearm ownership for someone "Committed to a mental institution."

Key question, do you have to have a hearing or not?

Any good 2nd amendment lawyers in the state?

swinokur · Mar 11, 2016

start here.

http://www.mdshooters.com/forumdisplay.php?f=189

CrueChief · Mar 11, 2016

1) Never let police into your home without a warrant, no offense.
2) Never let a firearm out of your control without a warrant.
3) Never volunteer to go with the police about a legal matter without a lawyer.
4) Never voluntarily submit to a mental evaluation without a lawyer.

This goes to show that people are to trusting in the system. Unfortunately the time has passed when you can go with the premise of things being ok simply because you have nothing to hide. We live in a world/state that doesn't care who is right and who is wrong.

Rab1515 · Mar 11, 2016

I believe the whole thing will be thrown out. He agreed to go to the hospital, and it was a bait and switch. you can let some one agree to go, then commit them when they refuses to strip naked.

alucard0822 · Mar 11, 2016

Call a lawyer, if a lawyer was involved from the beginning, or at least he knew his rights and stuck to them then most likely none of this would have happened. Unless a court order was involved it was a "voluntary" commitment, and he's probably not prohibited. We have due process when it comes to our rights, police and psych doctors can take your guns and lock you up, but they can't take your rights without a judge getting involved(usually to commit someone after they fail the psych eval), and in turn you have an opportunity to defend yourself with representation.

Jaybeez · Mar 11, 2016

Someone hopefully will correct me if I'm wrong.

this is what was happening according to your story, from my understanding.

-A family member petitioned for an involuntary commitment of your friend, claiming he was a danger to himself or others.
-The "squad car" picked him up and took him to a health facility, where he was forced to wear a buttless robe, while a medical doctor did a brief exam and signed off on the petition. Due to liability issues, doctors tend to sign first, and let due process work out later.
-You friend was then taken to Sheppard Pratt for a 72 hours evaluation. This is where the due process comes in. A longer exam is given, and he meets with doctors and social workers that determine if he should be committed involuntarily.
-If he was released, then no involuntary commitment happened.

Now,
-He should be able to own firearms.
-MSP's wear and carry app asks about evaluations, so he maybhave to disclose that if he applies
-Some states have different laws about what constitutes an involuntary commitment. They may consider him prohibited in other states.

Also, there is a patient's bill of rights that deals with this process. An extended hold because of weather, if that was actually the case, may have violated that. He may have a claim there.

Threeband · Mar 11, 2016

If my sister SWATted me like that, I'd SWAT her right back.

Hawkeye · Mar 11, 2016

swinokur said:
start here.

http://www.mdshooters.com/forumdisplay.php?f=189

THIS, and ONLY this. Don't talk about it any more, except to a lawyer. Period.

CrueChief said:
1) Never let police into your home without a warrant, no offense.
2) Never let a firearm out of your control without a warrant.
3) Never volunteer to go with the police about a legal matter without a lawyer.
4) Never voluntarily submit to a mental evaluation without a lawyer.

Hindsight is 20/20, but this, too.

HortusQ · Mar 11, 2016

get a lawyer ASAP ,stay off social media

swinokur · Mar 11, 2016

including MDS

Redcobra · Mar 11, 2016

CrueChief said:
1) Never let police into your home without a warrant, no offense.
2) Never let a firearm out of your control without a warrant.
3) Never volunteer to go with the police about a legal matter without a lawyer.
4) Never voluntarily submit to a mental evaluation without a lawyer.

This goes to show that people are to trusting in the system. Unfortunately the time has passed when you can go with the premise of things being ok simply because you have nothing to hide. We live in a world/state that doesn't care who is right and who is wrong.

++++++1000

RoadDawg · Mar 11, 2016

Very interesting post #1...

Lots of questions with no answers...

No way to opine with just one side of the story...

Best advice has been stated... Get a lawyer and delete your "overly detailed account" from social media... TMI is just TMI.

DutchV · Mar 11, 2016

I wouldn't have gone with the cops. No warrant? Let me talk to my lawyer. We can chat if it makes you feel better but I'm not going anywhere. Enjoy your day, fellas.

Definitely not sending that sibling any more Christmas cards, either.

Blacksmith101 · Mar 11, 2016

Delete your 1st post before it gets quoted!

bajco · Mar 11, 2016

Per recommendation first post shortened.

Research suggest "Furda v State of Maryland" might be the relevant precedence. In this case, Furda is subjected to the involuntary admission (IVA) process at the request of his former spouse. During the process, his weapons are seized. Furda is taken into custody, to the emergency room and then to a hospital, but is ultimately released without a hearing several days later. This closely parallels the events of original post above, now shortened.

Later, when Furda seeks to recover his weapons, a Montgomery county judge rules that the IVA process Mr Furda was subjected to triggered Federal 18 and Maryland clauses saying that someone committed to a mental health institution may not own firearms, any firearms, EVER. Furda appeals.

In one of two parallel appeals, the Maryland Special Court of Appeals rules that because Mr Furda was not granted access to counsel and his IVA was not reviewed by a Maryland Administrative Law judge per MD health 10-163, it did not constitute a "commitment to a mental institution" under both Federal and State gun laws, nether Federal 18 or MD "commitment" standards are met.

Can anyone say if there is a more current case relevant to the IVA process in Maryland and firearms, that modifies and or overrules the ruling with respect to definition of "Commitment to a mental institution" in Maryland? This seems to settle matter, but its hard to be sure.

http://www.courts.state.md.us/opinions/cosa/2010/3053s07.pdf

Note, there are two appeals, in the other appeal, referred to as Furda II, Mr Furda seeks to overturn a perjury conviction for saying no to the "have you been committed to a mental institution" question on the gun purchase form because he was "not committed." He loses this appeal, but the court does not change the ruling in Furda I, which I reference for this thread. The dissent in Furda II seems to state Furda was screwed in Furda II because he answered no, True, but because of the Montgomery court ruling still in effect, no was purjury.

CrueChief · Mar 11, 2016

This Furda II case brings me to a question I have had why do we have to spend all this time filling out these background check questionnaires when the gov't is supposedly checking this stuff independently. Seems to me this case could have been avoided if all we had to do was provide identification type info and let the gov't do its thing.

Blacksmith101 · Mar 11, 2016

bajco said:
When does the Involuntary Commitment Process in Maryland trigger Federal 18 and MS Law clauses on no firearm ownership for someone "Committed to a mental institution."

Key question, do you have to have a hearing or not?

Any good 2nd amendment lawyers in the state?

The link in post #2 will give you a list.

bajco · Mar 12, 2016

CrueChief said:
This Furda II case brings me to a question I have had why do we have to spend all this time filling out these background check questionnaires when the gov't is supposedly checking this stuff independently. Seems to me this case could have been avoided if all we had to do was provide identification type info and let the gov't do its thing.

In the process I am observing, the City of Annapolis claims by way of APD that, because they "do not have the same technology" the background check to return the property in question will take "three to four weeks because its all done by snail mail."

I asked, well, I can get a background check across the street and walk with a new gun in a week, to which there was no response. Upon reading Furda II I see why. Worse, for the O'Malley clause in MD law about training and the exemption to that clause for veterans with an honorable, APD asked for documents. They were provided with a certified, notarized by Anne Arundel courts, original signed in ink (with a copy on file), DD-214 and a federally issued disabled veterans ID. "NO NO, I have to do this way, and it has to come by snail mail and that is not what we need" -APD

This post started with what I think is a very good question still. What exactly does "committed to a mental institution" mean under the law? I for one have seen some very depression shit in my life, I was trained by the American tax payer to suicide before surrender (I was intel, torture was expected), I as an intel guy was trained to answer questions with the truth, period. When asked if I had contemplated, I said hell yes, that was my job, Now, I lose my rights for being honest?

To the original question, does anyone know of anything in MD Law that is more current than Furda I on the topic of defining "committed?"

Minuteman · Mar 12, 2016

CrueChief said:
1) Never let police into your home without a warrant, no offense.
2) Never let a firearm out of your control without a warrant.
3) Never volunteer to go with the police about a legal matter without a lawyer.
4) Never voluntarily submit to a mental evaluation without a lawyer.

This goes to show that people are to trusting in the system. Unfortunately the time has passed when you can go with the premise of things being ok simply because you have nothing to hide. We live in a world/state that doesn't care who is right and who is wrong.

Wise.

swinokur · Mar 12, 2016

It would be more prudent to sek the advice of an attorney than asking non lawyers for theirs.

Just my opinion.

Advice request - MD State Law & Mental Health

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