Mystery Argentine Navy Colt (by Colt)

vector03 said:

With these new pics, I withdraw my original opinion. Looks like this could be a 1925 Commerical purchase. Originally, it would have been blued...must have been parkerized when it was refinished.

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Depending upon which list you look at, it was either made in 1925 or 1926. A more detailed list (posted earlier--#38) appears on an Argentine website. It shows this one as having been made by Colt in 1925, and gives production numbers for the ones shipped to the Argentine Navy. Someone noted that the information was, "straight out of Clawson," so we don't know if the site and Clawson used the same original info source, or if they copied Clawson's data.

In any case, this gun was part of an Argentine government contract with Colt. They apparently bought the commercial "Government Model" Colts at various times between 1914 and 1950, with their largest purchase being the 10K "Hartford Colts" order of 1927.

Although I can't afford Clawson's Big Book right now, I've gotten a couple of other texts sent to me in the last two days. They both point out that the "G" on the receiver and slide indicate they were originally made for a (U.S.) government contract. The 10,000 "Hartford Colts" contracted by the Argentine government a year or two later were apparently marked with and "O" in the same place.

My working theory is now that these were overrun components from the last U.S. Gov't order that were assembled and marked for the 1924 and 1925* shipments specifically for the Argentine Navy. There were 78 Navy guns sent to the Marina Argentina in each of those two years.

From the markings, it now seems that this one started out as an over-run U.S. Government contract pistol in the 1924 "transitional" series between the models 1911 and 1911A1, then was stamped with the Commercial series serial number for sale to Argentina ... probably in 1925, but possibly in 1926. The Colt letter should clear that up.

I hope so but don't hold your breath
They probably won't get to that level of detail.
Fingers crossed though!

somd_mustangs said:

I hope so but don't hold your breath
They probably won't get to that level of detail.
Fingers crossed though!

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I'm only really hoping for / expecting the date that it was shipped, and to whom it was originally sent. Beyond that, the markings on the gun will have to speak for themselves, and all the sources that I've seen indicate that the "G" that appears on my receiver and slide indicates it was made for a U.S. government contract--but the markings on it show Marina Argentina (correct for the date) and apparently Clawson shows it to be in the serial number series from which 78 were sent to the Argentine Navy in 1925 (even though it falls into a serial number block intended for 1926). It may have been contracted in '25 and shipped in '26 ... maybe the letter will have clues to that.

somd_mustangs said:

I had one of the early Argentine Army guns (C20000) and it had a matte/semi-gloss black finish (refinish I should say).
It was a little soft and easily scratched as I found out the hard way, but it was over a polished gun, not blasted.

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Interestingly enough, there was a period of time, right around when these were made, when they left off the last "oil buffing" step in polishing the finish of Colts. These are referred to as "matte finish" or "brush finish" guns. They are still a polished finish, though, only not as reflective as the highly-polished finishes ... and certainly not media blasted as mine is.

Does the G only indicate US govt contract or just a govt contract from any country?

ken792 said:

Does the G only indicate US govt contract or just a govt contract from any country?

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I'm not absolutely sure of that. I guess that it could be either--I haven't seen it stated clearly--but the context in which it's been mentioned in the works that I've read so far suggest that it's a U.S. government contract.

Colt acknowledged (by post card) receipt of payment for lettering the gun. They stated on the card that the current turn-around time is between 100-120 days, so I guess it'll be March, or so, before this post gets another update.

And the saga grinds on ... slowly!

I got a reply today from a fellow in Argentina who is an enthusiast about older Argentine military firearms. His blogs, in Spanish, are a wealth of information.

Excerpted from what he sent me are the following bits of information:

• There was a special order placed with Colt by the Argentine Navy in 1924, for 78 Colt 1911A1s.
• There was a second order, again for 78 1911A1s, in 1925. Again, it was for 78 guns. My gun was part of this 1925 order.
• In 1926, there was a third order placed by the Argentine Navy. This one was for 150 guns.

The "M--11. xx" numbers are apparently issue numbers, but it's not entirely clear if the guns were numbered by Colt, or by the Argentines.

Mine, serial number C145127, has the issue number M--11.84

There's apparently one shown (according to my Argentine friend) in Clawson's book that has serial number C145130, but it has the issue number M--11.85

We know that the serial numbers on these orders were not sequential, but were pulled from larger blocs of gun serial numbers.

Other info that I've found suggests that the issue numbers may not always have been put on in sequence according to serial number (or they may have been--that's just not certain).

It also suggests that the Argentines referred to these batches of guns as the M--11, and probably that the issue numbering sequence was:

• M--11. 1 through M--11. 78 for the 1924 issue
• M--11. 79 through M--11. 156 for the 1925 issue
  
• The 1927 issue guns may, or may not, have had an "M--11. x" number.
  

This seems to be supported by the fact that serial number C154916 has the issue number, 251. If this is correct, mine was the sixth one issued out of the batch from 1925. Just to speculate a bit, if the more senior people had "first dibs" on the new batch of sidearms, it might explain why mine remains in such excellent (little-used) condition.

Another bit of information that seems to have come out of this is that the guns from the first two batches (1924 and 1925) were marked, "Marina Argentina," but those from the Argentine Navy's 1927 shipment were marked with the more modern, "Armada Nacional" identification.

This same fellow sent me some photos, as well as a very informative letter, but I'm having trouble getting the photos to open in my mail software.

No response yet from Colt on lettering this gun, but that's probably a month or two away, still.

Cool. Glad to see the pieces of the puzzle coming together for you.

More i look, the more of a Amazing piece i think it is.

You could forward the email to me and I'd be happy to see what I can do. My sons are computer nerds even more than myself

BigDaddy said:

You could forward the email to me and I'd be happy to see what I can do. My sons are computer nerds even more than myself

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Thanks, but I'm sort of a computer nerd myself. I had to open using another browser and mail client to get the images to show.

Here are two of them. One is a photo of a gun that Clawson owns, and which is the next issue number to mine. (I'm including just that photo here for illustration and educational purposes under the "fair use" exceptions to copyright protection.) I suspect that the date of shipment given here will be the main piece of new info that the Colt letter, when it eventually gets to me, will provide.

The other image is an advertisement from a company that was selling these guns at one time. The name of the company isn't listed on this image, unfortunately, but it does mention the batch that mine came from. This may be the company that I mentioned earlier--New Helvetia Mercantile--one of Edward Faust's several companies in Sacramento. NHM was incorporated in 1983, and I suspect that this was one of their earlier imports.

This date may be significant, because the "Malvinas War" (Falkland Islands, to the Brits) took place in 1982. I'm led to suppose, based upon some strong circumstantial evidence, that the re-arsenal work may have been done either in preparation for, or during, this war. Keep in mind that the purpose of parkerizing in the first place was to give better corrosion protection (and these were Navy guns), and to also keep guns from "glinting" in the dark or in bright sunlight (and the Navy led the attack on the Malvinas islands).

In any case, that war may at least have been the impetus for upgrading their inventory of handguns.

What makes something "collectible"? That changes over time. For a long time, the nicest examples (most original and like new) were considered the most desirable. More and more, though, the relationship with history, and how that history is reflected in the piece, are tending to be desirable attributes. If the "M--11" number was added by the Argentine Navy [Correction: further info from Colt reveals that this number was added at the Colt factory for the two batches of 79 guns each that were delivered to the Argentine Naval Commission], and if the same Navy park'd the gun for war, I wouldn't see those as being detriments to the gun. It's not as if bubba did it. It's part of the firearm's history.

Of special interest to me is that the advertiser talks about hand-selecting the guns that he's selling from a batch that has arrived. He also mentions three finish options: original factory finish, arsenal re-blue, and parkerized. The park'd guns are listed with 98% finish (not 100%), which is a fair description of mine. This supports my supposition that these were not refinished just to look nice for export, but were used for a time after they were arsenal re-finished. The arsenal re-blued guns are likewise listed as 90% to 97% finish, so that also suggests some use post re-arsenal. (It also may cast some suspicion on a couple of guns from this period that have been listed as having excellent "original" blued finish.)

So ... a large "DO NOT BEND" envelope showed up in my mailbox today ... not too badly bent. It was from Colt Archive Properties, LLC. My mysterious Argentine Navy Hartford-made Colt has been "lettered"!

(See this link for info about "lettering" a Colt.) http://199.91.126.234/showthread.php?t=165913

There weren't many surprises in the letter, but there was a very welcome confirmation of information that's been a big unknown until now--even in the books written by the experts.

I already knew the caliber, serial number, etc., of course, and had found that it was probably part of the late 1925 shipment from Colt to Argentina. I'd also deduced that, unfortunately, this one started out blued, and was Parkerized by the Argentine Navy in the late '70s or early '80s. In short, sometime around the war over the Malvinas / Falkland Islands. The small amount of post-Parkerizing holster wear suggested that this was done while the gun was still in active service: a theory borne out by an early ad by a U.S. importer who stated that they were selling Argentine imports that were coming in with the original bluing (worn), some that were re-blued, and some that had been Parkerized. Mine appears to have been one of those imports.

The parkerizing is frustrating, because it's clear that it was done to a gun that was in excellent condition to begin with. It's tight as a new gun, and the internal parts that were not park'd nearly all have like-new original bluing. Furthermore, all the numbers match on this gun, and all parts but the recoil spring guide appear to be nearly new and original to the gun.

The slide and frame numbers match, but they are marked with "G" markings, indicating that the parts used for this one were overrun surplus from Colt's previous U.S. Government contract. In short, it's sort of a Colt commercial, U.S. military, transitional, Argentine Navy, conglomeration--but all with the major parts (and most minor parts) factory original to this particular gun.

But what's probably the neatest new bit of info is that not only the "Marina Argentina" on the side of the gun, but also the mysterious "M--11.84" model and serial number were engraved by the Colt factory. This verifies that the numbers were not, as has been speculated, some re-furb or other number added by the Argentines.

It also ties up some loose ends of a bit of mystery about these pretty rare-marked "M--11. x" guns.

There were two shipments of Colt 1911 pistols shipped to the Argentine Naval Commission with these markings. Each shipment consisted of 78 pistols, so the late 1924 shipment was of M--11.1 through M--11.78. The late 1925 shipment (including mine) was M--11.79 through M--11.156.

That means that my gun was the 7th in the 1925 contract shipment, and Clawson's was number 8 in that series. It also shows that there were only 156 Argentine Colt pistols that were designated as "M--11" guns. While that may not add a huge amount to the collector value, it does make it a very interesting part of a historical footnote.

Edit:

The Marina Argentina (Argentine Navy) purchased 78 pistols in 1924. They were in the number range of about 140700 to about 140900.
They were commercial colts with "Marina Argentina" roll marks added at the Colt factory in Hartford, CT.

In 1925, 78 more pistols were purchased in the number range of about 144100 to about 145300

The 156 pistols shipped in 1924 and 1925 were also marked at the Colt factory with model and issue numbers "M--11. 1" through "M--11. 156". The "C" serial numbers on these guns appear to have been marked correspondingly from lowest to highest, but they were not sequential. In other words, there are gaps between the "C number" of M--11. 84 and M--11. 85, for example.

In 1927, 150 pistols in the number range of about 154600 to about 155000 were shipped to the Argentine Navy by Colt, but it's not certain if these had an "M--11. x" number, and they were marked "Republica Argentina Armada Nacional".


Anyway, here's the letter:

Ka-Ching!

Boom Boom said:

Ka-Ching!

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Yep. From a financial standpoint, and a collectible standpoint, that $100 piece of long-awaited paper may have bumped the value of this particular gun up considerably--even with the Parkerized finish. For that matter, even the finish doesn't bother me all that much, since it's pretty clearly part of the military history of the gun vs. something that Bubba did to it down in his basement.

So far, I've only been able to locate about six of the M--11. x guns, and two of those were mixmasters.

Congrats!
I'm glad the letter explained and validated the origin of the M-11 markings.
Probably not as glad as you but it's very interesting info.
Frankly I'm pleasantly surprised Colt had that info, and that no one has gotten a letter for one of these yet (or else has kept it close-hold).
That's something new to add to the collective knowledge!
Well worth the $$ and the wait - which really wasn't very long all things told.

somd_mustangs said:

Frankly I'm pleasantly surprised Colt had that info, and that no one has gotten a letter for one of these yet (or else has kept it close-hold).

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Clawson apparently had the same info for his gun (the next one in line after this one--see post #74 of this thread). He mentions it as an "issue number," but he doesn't say whether Colt inscribed it, or if it was done in Argentina. This does clear that up. It's a nice bit of trivia, if nothing else. I'm not planning on being able to retire on this one.

Coincidence? Maybe ... maybe not ... but it's interesting that there were two Argentine Naval Commission orders for 78 (each) Colts during 1924 and 1925. Here's something else that was going on:

"Throughout their careers, Rivadavia and Moreno [Argentina's two battleships] were based in Puerto Belgrano and served principally as training ships and diplomatic envoys. They were modernized in the United States in 1924 and 1925 and were inactive for much of the Second World War due to Argentina's neutrality.