What IS the definition of "assault weapon", officially?

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  • Chauchat

    Active Member
    Jan 16, 2014
    118
    In the free States
    Here's one version of what an "Assault weapon" is...
    View attachment 456531

    "A semiautomatic version of an automatic firearm"... so a glock 17 is an "Assault weapon" because the glock 18 exists and also because it takes 17 round mags. It becomes even more assault weaponlier if a pistol's dust cover counts as a "barrel shroud" and if it has a threaded barrel.

    This is all the term "Assault weapon" currently is... an umbrella term for guns antigunners want to ban. You are wasting your time with any other attempt at defining it.
    You nailed it, Smokey. You are my new best friend when it comes to the law. May I suggest you use these links from now on.

    Use https://www.congress.gov/search?q={"source":"legislation","congress":118} for bills in the 118th congress.

    Use https://www.govinfo.gov/app/collection/bills/118/hr/{"pageSize":"20","offset":"0"} for authenticated documents

    The US Code https://www.govinfo.gov/app/collection/uscode/2020/

    Slip laws https://www.govinfo.gov/app/collection/plaw/118/public/all/{"pageSize":"20","offset":"0"}

    Statutes At Large https://www.govinfo.gov/app/collection/statute/2017

    Arms owners are some of the most ignorant gum flappers in North America. That's right. Ignorant. Not stupid. Most of them are educated men but they choose to be ignorant and the Anti's dance rings around them because of their ignorance.

    I would say eighty-nine per cent argue from emotion. That is the losers game. Another six percent move closer to the issue at hand. Both of these groups are playing a defensive game or no game at all. The remaining five percent at the ones taking the game to the Antis.

    Chauchat rules for Patriots

    Argue the Declaration. Then the Articles After, that Constitution. Finally the Amendments. Don't talk about constitutional rights. Hammer our elected types why they are not performing their duties of ensuring our rights under the Declaration of Independence.

    Go directly to the original source document for your education. (Has any of you read the Bill of the first twelve amendments sent to the States by that congress?)

    Know which theater you are working in at the moment. Is it the Congressional level? One of the fifty States? Territories and possessions?

    Stop using the word "weapon". That's a shout out to all the Army and Marine types who are brain washed by basic training to call a rifle a weapon. It goes for cops and cop sycophants, also. We have the right to bear arms and not the right to bear weapons. The rally cry in history has always been "To Arms! To Arms!". "To weapons!", said no one ever.

    The devil IS in the definitions. Any of you Veterans and military types who have ever read a regulation in the USAF, Army, Navy, or the Corps has the skill set required to read congressional bills, statutes, and regulations.

    We use words with, at most times, a common meaning. The law uses legal terms and all legal terms are defined.

    The law is written in clear language. The void for vagueness rule is, paraphrasing, if statute cannot be read by a citizen of average education then the law is void for vagueness. Our education and vocabulary is faulty or deficient

    Do not read any thing into the law and do not read any thing out of the law. It says and means what it says and means. Nothing else.

    The code of Federal Regulations must use the same definitions as the statute for which they were written.

    Don't use the words of the anti-rights communists and fascists. If they spout off about assault weapons come up with a different word, like militia arm.

    Don't dance to Brady's or Bloomberg's tune. Make them dance to ours.

    Finally, Justice Thomas showed us the path forward. Don't let him or your posterity down.
     

    MattFinals718

    Active Member
    Nov 23, 2022
    358
    Arlington, VA
    Sorry for my absence. I had an exciting weekend, so I haven't had the mental energy to get back to this thread.

    I'll also acknowledge that, because I'm violating one of the sacred taboos of the 2A community, this conversation is definitely getting hostile and devolving into ad hominem attacks. I had really started out hoping that I could present my views on the subject without it coming to that, but that was naïve of me. Oh, well. I've been on firearms message boards/social media for many years now, and it always seems to go this way.

    And I can see that Boats is getting very testy, which means that I'm on to something. When your tactics of arguments are to quote single sentences without context, and miss the forest for the trees, you've got a credibility issue of your own.

    It was actually VPC (Violence Policy Center) not Brady:
    A very good resource on the creation of the term "assault weapon" and how the anti-gun groups use it interchangeably with assault rifle.




    Not really when an organization actually admits that it created the term to create misunderstanding to advance their goals. At that point, I only need one source and one proof. You on the other hand, started out with one book cover. I would also contend that the items on the cover and the TEC-9 are defined as "assault pistols" since none of them are long arms.

    Actually, my understanding is that the VPC has in fact written about how gun manufacturers used the term previously during marketing in the 1980s. They've made that claim in at least one of their "fact sheets" that I'm aware of, and I've seen them post pics of ads similar to the one I've showed you. The article that you've posted, based on my cursory glance, does not claim that the VPC invented the term "assault weapon," only that Josh Sugarmann recognized back in the 1980s that, because handgun bans were politically impossible in the U.S., he needed to find a new category of firearms that the public would support banning. So yes, VPC made "assault weapons" into a gun control frontier (and arguably the most divisive one), but they didn't invent the term.

    It actually is since we are discussing Maryland laws and lawsuits.

    You're misusing the context here. The ad was posted to demonstrate an example of a gun manufacturer using that term in the 1980s.

    More than the one you posted and related to long guns, not pistol caliber handguns/firearms since if you want to continue to support your argument, you at least need to stick with an intermediate rifle round like the gun grabbers.

    Why? I'm looking at all of the antis' least favorite firearms, not just rifles.

    How can you use the definition to distinguish between a copy or not and what is an "assault weapon" or not. Replace "copy" with "assault weapon" and that is exactly what you are doing with your discussion. You, yourself, mentioned above thread that the only difference between your 9620 and an M4 is s trigger and a sear. We both agree that they are not 100% parts compatible. Using the MD AG's opinion then, your 6920 is not a copy of an M4 and thus is not an "assault rifle". How is that a distraction from the conversation?

    Because, as I've said previously, I'm really not concerned with any specific legislative body's or organization's definition. While I've offered my own definition, it has more to do with informing this conversation than anything else. I am mostly interested in the fundamental question - from a shooter's perspective, what's the difference between certain Title I firearms, and Title II firearms? I'm also addressing the question - when it comes to differences between select-fire and semi-auto versions of the same weapons (and an M4A1 and a Colt 6920 are indeed versions of the same weapons, not completely different weapons, practically speaking), how much do those differences matter?

    Eight years back in the late 80's and mid 90's. Times change, but the firearms training course hasn't. I was in a comms MOS and I'll leave it at that, but did quite a bit of close support for the those in combat arms MOSs. And before you think a comms guys has little clue about weapons and combat arms tactics, you would be very wrong in this case, and I will leave it at that.

    Nope, one of the guys I work(ed) with, and with whom I used to talk firearms, was a 0602 (I think that's correct identifier). I think it is entirely plausible that you would have to know combat arms tactics.

    It depends on the situation and the environment, but it can be very useful initially for establishing firing lanes for each individual in a fire team, or taking back the initiative in a fight. At which point, in both cases, you got back to semi and aimed, directed shots.

    I'm betting all of those videos showed the service members in basically the same situations in all of them. More than likely not being overrun or ambushed, and without the need for FA?

    Off the top of my head (having not watched some of these YouTube channels in a while), yes, that sounds correct. In the late-00s and early-2010s, channels like Funker530 posted a lot of YouTube clips like that.

    Yep, most of the SOF type units try to stay away from FA/burst simply for the reason of the amount of personal ammo they carry for each mission. They really don't want to blow through their ammo at all unless they have to. They concentrate even more on aimed shot placement than basic/fire teams/etc. to the point that the do live fire training with their entire team sitting in a shoot house/walk through as non combantents to make it more difficult and make sure they get the mission pararmeters right.

    Makes sense. When Larry Vickers discussed his Colt 723 with Ian McCollum (here), specifically at 8:14 where he discusses the FCG of his weapon, he made it seem as though they just didn't have practical uses for it. (He cites helicopter work as one of the few mission uses.)

    So what? What makes your opinion so special?

    Don't claim my opinion is special. I do claim, as a plea to our community, that trying to pretend that the antis' least favorite firearms are just "ugly" sporting rifles is not helping our cause. Neither, I'm afraid, does doing what you're doing now.

    Ok lets substitute "appropriated" for "invented". The etymology is irrelevant. Currently "assault weapon" is an undefined term meant to reference any weapon the speaker of that term deems scary to rally support for their unconstitutional ban.

    Fair enough.

    Of course. Because assault weapon is not a set definition. Battle rifle, light machine gun, heavy machine gun, Assault rifle, Submachine gun, Pistol caliber carbine, pistol, revolver, shotgun, all have universally definable characteristics. Assault weapon does not.

    Don't claim that it is. But I'm starting with a term that I think captures most of the weapons that the left regards as useful for mass shooters, for the sake of discussion.

    I also need to point out that the term is being applied to many types of firearms, some of which do not seem to be true assault weapons. I chalk this up to our opponents' ignorance (because yes, at the end of the day, I still regard them as ignorant about many aspects of firearms).

    No, it isn't. It really isnt.

    Try to buy a .50BMG in Commiefornia. Or google the .50 BMG regulation act of 2004

    Well, yes, of course one could simply ban a caliber by naming it in a law. I'm very well aware that FSA 2013 did the same thing. And yet we've seen how that's played out: The .50-caliber Barrett M82 is banned in MD, but the .416 version is not. So, yes, while I acknowledge that a bill can read like a T-Swift song if its author writes it that way, practically speaking, caliber rarely works out the way that the gun controllers intend.

    IDGAF what our (2A) enemies are concerned about. They are the insane ones using their first amendment rights to attack our second amendment rights.

    I guess that's one fundamental difference in our opinion. While I see plenty of anti-gun morons on TikTok who strike me as "insane" (they usually have blue hair and their pronouns listed), I don't necessarily regard all gun control supporters as such. I also don't regard the general public (a sizeable plurality of whom support gun control laws) as such, unless you also think our society is that messed up?

    Anyway, the fact that I am leary of how we present ourselves to those who might be convinced that we're right is part of the reason I'm engaging in this discussion.

    Why are you so concerned with assigning a label to these firearms? Seriously, youre either writing a paper, running for office, or youre the new guy at Everytown who has to go into the lions den.

    Ah, I knew that this attack would come out from you sooner or later - that I'm a closet Everytown member (20 years ago, it was Brady Bunch member).

    Anyway, I'm tired of repeating myself. I've told you repeatedly why I am engaging in this discussion.

    That hasn't worked out well so far. When our constitutional argument is literally the constitution but still gets argued with ....I will absolutely NOT let it stand at that. Not. one. more. inch.

    So this, right here, is what concerns me about you, and anyone like you. (And side note: In the other topic, I thought you were at least reasonable before.)

    You're basically saying that you think it's OK to perpetuate lies about firearms, pretending that there are zero differences between them (i.e., an AR-15 and .38-caliber revolver have no functional differences), because you're afraid that if you rest ONLY on the Constitutional arguments, that won't convince anyone that our side has the moral high ground?

    Or am I reading this incorrectly? Please elaborate.

    Didnt you berate mpollan1 for comparing guns to humans? And then you compare guns to humans? To use your phrase "That's such an apples and oranges comparison"

    It was meant as a joke about that very comparison made by mpollan1, which I thought was self-evident. This is what I get for trying my hand at humor with you. No worries, next time, I'll put a sarcasm emoji.

    The cover. On the picture that you posted. Lower right side. Just to the right of the micro UZI and under the red text. Do you need a map? Fine:
    View attachment 456369

    Ah, your post wasn't very clear. I thought you were referring to the text of the article itself, not the cover of the book, so I wasn't inclined to look back at the cover.

    Anyway: That's hardly a "definition," it's simply a summary of different categories of weapons addressed in the book. But nonetheless, I really don't care, because that's besides the point of why I posted that book in the first place. Let's not go off on distraction tactics again.

    I owe you? Go and get your shinebox.

    This was already settled. You think a Steyr SPP is an assault weapon but a Glock isnt because you shoot the Steyr faster and more accurately. Ok, lets use your logic: I shoot a Glock faster and more accurately than a Steyr SPP, so a Glock must be an assault weapon. My opinion means as much as yours with regard to this argument. See how personal opinion gets in the way of objective fact?

    Actually, I did an entire other post where I described some of the mechanical characteristics of both firearms, not based on my subjective shooting experience alone. You just chose to ignore it.

    I would be happy to quote a link I found to a magazine article (reproduced on Remtek) about the Steyr SPP if you'd like to read it, as it seems to match my own observations about how easily the SPP can be controlled when fired rapidly.

    Based on your "experience" of watching TV, reading, the internet, and your survey size of "a few acquaintances."

    We are overlooking your argument because it is a bad one. You have very little if any hands on experience with full auto, so you certainly aren't an expert. Your survey of your veteran acquaintances is dubious, as their experience cannot be verified. You havent quoted any sources of what you have read, or seen. This is an appeal to authority fallacy.

    Yes, I cite my own experience (and I do own/shoot firearms, as previous posts in this community have made clear), as well as what I've read, including articles and YouTube posts by folks in the firearms community who are considered authoritative and respected. I'm not sure what expertise you bring to the table that is any different than mine.

    I don't claim to have any "expertise" (whatever accreditation that entails), just that I've been part of the 2A community for 20+ years, I own/shoot guns like anyone else here, and I read and watch experts' opinions like anyone else who enjoys firearms as a hobby. When it comes to the "assault weapons" issue, I am different in that I happen to think that there is a Groupthink in our community that is counter-productive and also scares many reasonable people.

    BTW, yes, I have fired a full-auto weapon once in my life (an HK416, at Blue Ridge Arsenal, back when they were still around).

    Something being missed regarding “assault” weapons is the entertainment industry. Prior to tv shows like Miami Vice and movies such as the Rambo franchise…rifles like AR-15s and others were relegated to survivalist magazines of the day and were considered the red-headed step-child of the gun world.

    Once those tv shows, movies and video games became popular it seemed no self-respecting gang-banger or drug lord could be seen without his AR, Uzi, Steyr AUG or high capacity pistol anymore. The drug wars began in our cities and the media built it up and the politicians rode that horse to enact bans on inanimate objects rather than address the criminal behavior itself In any meaningful form.

    I don’t want censorship and I’ve enjoyed much of the media I’m complaining about…but I also believe we need to be realistic about the issue. The gun community had its part…promoting the term for book sales and firearms sales…the politicians for their own nefarious purposes…the media for ratings…and on and on.

    I’m not claiming I have the answer but I do think we need to keep being honest and truthful where the gun banners have not been and will not be. It’s difficult to get truth through the Kultursmog as I’ve seen it referred to.

    Arguing amongst ourselves over small things only helps the other side. None of us is perfect…but as the old saying goes…we need to hang together or we will most assuredly hang separately.

    Thank you for acknowledging what I have been saying. I think that Boats is going to give you a lecture on daring to make such a statement without citing your sources in the MLA style in your posts.

    Lets do a thought experiment @MattFinals718:

    Youre at a gun range. There is a table with an AR15, A full size UZI carbine, and A Steyr SPP pistol.

    I ask you to hand me the Assault weapon. Which one do you hand me?


    Now, I ask you to hand me the SMG, or the pistol, or the rifle.

    See the vagueness (and uselessness) of the term "Assault weapon" now?

    "Assault weapon" is a blanket term, and one that (as I have acknowledged) gets mis-applied frequently. But based on the common usage (however politically charged it may be), all of the guns that you mention fit under the broader category. There's also multiple descriptors for each:

    - AR-15 = semi-automatic assault rifle (vs. an M4A1, which is a select-fire assault rifle)
    - Uzi carbine = semi-automatic carbine, semi-automatic pistol caliber carbine, semi-automatic version of SMG (as opposed to the original Uzi, which is just a submachine gun)
    - Steyr SPP = semi-automatic assault pistol, semi-automatic version of SMG (as opposed to the TMP, which is just an SMG or a machine pistol)

    BTW, of course I don't use the term "assault weapon" in conversation. I'm a gun geek, so I call everything by its brand name.

    Stay loony tuned though, Matt will be providing a brief to all States and the SCOTUS with said definition.

    You know, that's actually a great idea!

    BTW, I'd still tell anyone who asked in a hearing (State or federal) that while I don't think of AR-15s as "modern sporting rifles," I still think that the focus on banning them is myopic and unconstitutional. I think that there are plenty of good arguments that we bring to the table. Pretending that these guns are not semi-automatic versions of select-fire weapons, and that their design history brings no functional differences to the experience of shooting them, is unfortunately an intellectually dishonest approach to making our case.
     
    Last edited:

    Kagetsu

    Active Member
    Feb 4, 2009
    451
    It seems your attempting to "lock down" a purposely vague term. It was created to make restrictions on whatever they can convince the increasingly kangaroo judges to pass as law. The more it's used in publication makes it increasing valid until it can be ensconced in Webster.

    No. Looking the same does not make them "almost" the same. One is legal to purchase without a federal tax stamp. The other is not. That autofire switch makes all the difference.
     
    Last edited:

    dblas

    Past President, MSI
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 6, 2011
    13,110
    Actually, my understanding is that the VPC has in fact written about how gun manufacturers used the term previously during marketing in the 1980s. They've made that claim in at least one of their "fact sheets" that I'm aware of, and I've seen them post pics of ads similar to the one I've showed you. The article that you've posted, based on my cursory glance, does not claim that the VPC invented the term "assault weapon," only that Josh Sugarmann recognized back in the 1980s that, because handgun bans were politically impossible in the U.S., he needed to find a new category of firearms that the public would support banning. So yes, VPC made "assault weapons" into a gun control frontier (and arguably the most divisive one), but they didn't invent the term.
    So you only glanced at the entire white paper, not read the whole thing? And you probably won't but you will take a "fact sheet" from VPC. Mkay

    You're misusing the context here. The ad was posted to demonstrate an example of a gun manufacturer using that term in the 1980s.
    Not at all, since you highjack ed a Maryland Specific lawsuit to start your diatribe. Now, if you had started a separate thread on the subject then you might have a chance and saying I am mis using context., when in point of fact, you keep moving the goal post.


    Why? I'm looking at all of the antis' least favorite firearms, not just rifles.
    Their least favorite firearms are ALL of them.

    Because, as I've said previously, I'm really not concerned with any specific legislative body's or organization's definition.
    Here in Maryland, that is what we use to fight and keep what we have and to gain ground. You still haven't figured that out yet, especially in light of fact that it is a legal opinion from the highest ranking law enforcement individual in the State of Maryland.

    While I've offered my own definition, it has more to do with informing this conversation than anything else.
    Your definition sucks and makes absolutely no sense.

    I am mostly interested in the fundamental question - from a shooter's perspective, what's the difference between certain Title I firearms, and Title II firearms?
    From a shooter, one who has actually used both, function. I have never been deployed with anything other than a select fire rifle (I have carried all three, FA, 3 round burst, and the step child SA/3RB/FA). Have I ever used anything other than SA? Nope. Have I ever had the need to? Nope. How about you? Have you ever been ANYWHERE "down range"? Have you ever been anywhere where you have needed FA or 3RB? Have you ever even fired said firearms, or are you just providing your opinion based on what you have read and watched in videos?

    I'm also addressing the question - when it comes to differences between select-fire and semi-auto versions of the same weapons (and an M4A1 and a Colt 6920 are indeed versions of the same weapons, not completely different weapons, practically speaking), how much do those differences matter?
    Versions of the same weapons, yes, but not the same weapons in function. THAT is the difference, and they matter enough that you, me, and everyone else reading this thread, need to spend $200, get finger prints and wait about 9 months, before you can own a select fire, firearm. They matter enough that the difference needs to be articulated to the sheeple that take what Brady, ,VPC, and Everytown as gospel. And as the white paper I posted noted, they want to take advantage of that minor difference to ban common semi-automatic rifles, because they look exactly like something I carried in the military.

    Nope, one of the guys I work(ed) with, and with whom I used to talk firearms, was a 0602 (I think that's correct identifier). I think it is entirely plausible that you would have to know combat arms tactics.
    I know enough to know what I am talking about based on real life support in the military, certain units, in certain places. What experience do you have?

    Off the top of my head (having not watched some of these YouTube channels in a while), yes, that sounds correct. In the late-00s and early-2010s, channels like Funker530 posted a lot of YouTube clips like that.
    I'm so glad you approve based on what you have watched, instead of what you have actually experienced.


    Makes sense. When Larry Vickers discussed his Colt 723 with Ian McCollum (here), specifically at 8:14 where he discusses the FCG of his weapon, he made it seem as though they just didn't have practical uses for it. (He cites helicopter work as one of the few mission uses.)
    Again, approving of my post based on watching a video, instead of personal experience. I'll take my personal experience over your video watching.

    Don't claim my opinion is special. I do claim, as a plea to our community, that trying to pretend that the antis' least favorite firearms are just "ugly" sporting rifles is not helping our cause. Neither, I'm afraid, does doing what you're doing now.
    Not "ugly" sporting rifles, just semi-automatic rifles, for sporting purposes. If you think that is rediculous, then apparently you have absolutely no clue how we got the Colt Sporter HBAR exempted from the regulated list.

    Don't claim that it is. But I'm starting with a term that I think captures most of the weapons that the left regards as useful for mass shooters, for the sake of discussion.
    So you want to let them define the most useful firearm for mass shootings, when in point of fact it is a handgun and not a rifle or shotgun?

    I also need to point out that the term is being applied to many types of firearms, some of which do not seem to be true assault weapons. I chalk this up to our opponents' ignorance (because yes, at the end of the day, I still regard them as ignorant about many aspects of firearms).
    Go fully read (instead of cursory scanning it) the white paper I offered, it all gets explained and laid out there.

    Well, yes, of course one could simply ban a caliber by naming it in a law. I'm very well aware that FSA 2013 did the same thing. And yet we've seen how that's played out: The .50-caliber Barrett M82 is banned in MD, but the .416 version is not. So, yes, while I acknowledge that a bill can read like a T-Swift song if its author writes it that way, practically speaking, caliber rarely works out the way that the gun controllers intend.
    No it's not, not by name and not as a copy. That has been challenged and I can introduce you to at least two people that have bought one in Maryland since 2013.

    I guess that's one fundamental difference in our opinion. While I see plenty of anti-gun morons on TikTok who strike me as "insane" (they usually have blue hair and their pronouns listed), I don't necessarily regard all gun control supporters as such. I also don't regard the general public (a sizeable plurality of whom support gun control laws) as such, unless you also think our society is that messed up?

    Anyway, the fact that I am leary of how we present ourselves to those who might be convinced that we're right is part of the reason I'm engaging in this discussion.
    You apparently have never been to Annapolis and seen the interactions we have with the followers that read from a sheet of paper given to them. When we start to provide them with facts, their "guides" come by and walk them away from the conversation so they don't learn the truth. So yes, they are using their 1st Amendment Right to attack the 2nd Amendment. The way we present ourselves, is in point of fact, as factual subject matter experts on the issue. Explaining to them the difference between semi-auto and FA is a huge eye opener to most if not all of them. Your exercise in trying not to do so would only set us back in what we do and how we do it in Annapolis and other state houses.

    Ah, your post wasn't very clear. I thought you were referring to the text of the article itself, not the cover of the book, so I wasn't inclined to look back at the cover.

    Anyway: That's hardly a "definition," it's simply a summary of different categories of weapons addressed in the book. But nonetheless, I really don't care, because that's besides the point of why I posted that book in the first place. Let's not go off on distraction tactics again.
    Move the goal posts much? You used the cover as an example and now you only want to use the part that is useful to your agruement. It doesn't work that way, you either use it all or not at all. Talk about deflecting.
    I don't claim to have any "expertise" (whatever accreditation that entails), just that I've been part of the 2A community for 20+ years, I own/shoot guns like anyone else here, and I read and watch experts' opinions like anyone else who enjoys firearms as a hobby. When it comes to the "assault weapons" issue, I am different in that I happen to think that there is a Groupthink in our community that is counter-productive and also scares many reasonable people.
    Perhaps you should actually join us when we talk to the followers that show up in Annapolis, and you would see that we really don't scare anyone, but we sure do make them rethink what they have been told.

    BTW, yes, I have fired a full-auto weapon once in my life (an HK416, at Blue Ridge Arsenal, back when they were still around).
    How nice that you got to fire FA for fun.

    Thank you for acknowledging what I have been saying. I think that Boats is going to give you a lecture on daring to make such a statement without citing your sources in the MLA style in your posts.
    That is something a lot of us have been saying for a long time, in may of the discussions we have with the other side. To include educating them on the difference between semi-auto and full auto. You seem to think that having such a discussion and making the distinction is a bad thing.
    "Assault weapon" is a blanket term, and one that (as I have acknowledged) gets mis-applied frequently. But based on the common usage (however politically charged it may be), all of the guns that you mention fit under the broader category. There's also multiple descriptors for each:

    - AR-15 = semi-automatic assault rifle (vs. an M4A1, which is a select-fire assault rifle)
    - Uzi carbine = semi-automatic carbine, semi-automatic pistol caliber carbine, semi-automatic version of SMG (as opposed to the original Uzi, which is just a submachine gun)
    - Steyr SPP = semi-automatic assault pistol, semi-automatic version of SMG (as opposed to the TMP, which is just an SMG or a machine pistol)

    BTW, of course I don't use the term "assault weapon" in conversation. I'm a gun geek, so I call everything by its brand name.
    Then why fight trying to educate the followers of the other side on the differences and their actual nomenclature?

    You know, that's actually a great idea!

    BTW, I'd still tell anyone who asked in a hearing (State or federal) that while I don't think of AR-15s as "modern sporting rifles," I still think that the focus on banning them is myopic and unconstitutional. I think that there are plenty of good arguments that we bring to the table. Pretending that these guns are not semi-automatic versions of select-fire weapons, and that their design history brings no functional differences to the experience of shooting them, is unfortunately an intellectually dishonest approach to making our case.
    I'm not aware of anyone that has gone to Annapolis or other state house, that has ever pretended that they are a semi-automatic version of the FA counterpart. Where we disagree is that there is no functional difference between the two versions, when in point of fact there are.

    The AR-15 was, in point of fact, designed first and designed specifically for civilian use as a semi-auto rifle in 1955. Armalite sold the patent to Colt in 1959, and Colt created a FA version to sell to the military in 1963.


    So again, tell me why we should not be telling the sheeple that the AR-15 is a civilian made rifle and not a civilian version of a military rifle, when the M16/M4 is a military version of a civilian rifle?
     

    Boats

    Broken Member
    Mar 13, 2012
    4,123
    Howeird County
    ,
    - AR-15 = semi-automatic assault rifle (vs. an M4A1, which is a select-fire assault rifle

    By definition, the AR15 is not an assault rifle.


    The fact of the matter is: Firearm homicides have been in a steady decline since 1991 regardless of bans.

    All firearms have one job: To expel a projectile at high speed to deliver kinetic energy to a target. They are tools, nothing more.

    Firearms, including "assault weapons" used to be able to be obtained via mail order.

    My argument is that 1: we don't have a gun problem, or an assault weapon problem. Have a people problem.

    2: The citizens of this country have abdicated their personal responsibility for safety. That responsibility has been requested of the government which has responded in typical mediocre fashion.

    3: Mass shootings, while tragic, don't actually happen that often. It just feels like they do because of the media. The inner city violence and suicides that make up the MAJORITY of firearm homicides continues to go unaddressed.

    4. There is a fundamental attribution bias by the left regarding fault with regard to firearms: to wit- If someone kills a bunch of people with a car, knife, bomb, or airplane, the fault is placed on the person. If someone kills a bunch of people with a firearm, the fault is placed on the firearm. Firearms stand alone in this regard.

    These are all counterpoints to your argument regarding the classification of firearms as assault weapons because that argument is in itself irrelevant. Firearms aren't and never have been the problem.
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    50,074
    By definition, the AR15 is not an assault rifle.



    The fact of the matter is: Firearm homicides have been in a steady decline since 1991 regardless of bans.

    All firearms have one job: To expel a projectile at high speed to deliver kinetic energy to a target. They are tools, nothing more.

    Firearms, including "assault weapons" used to be able to be obtained via mail order.

    My argument is that 1: we don't have a gun problem, or an assault weapon problem. Have a people problem.

    2: The citizens of this country have abdicated their personal responsibility for safety. That responsibility has been requested of the government which has responded in typical mediocre fashion.

    3: Mass shootings, while tragic, don't actually happen that often. It just feels like they do because of the media. The inner city violence and suicides that make up the MAJORITY of firearm homicides continues to go unaddressed.

    4. There is a fundamental attribution bias by the left regarding fault with regard to firearms: to wit- If someone kills a bunch of people with a car, knife, bomb, or airplane, the fault is placed on the person. If someone kills a bunch of people with a firearm, the fault is placed on the firearm. Firearms stand alone in this regard.

    These are all counterpoints to your argument regarding the classification of firearms as assault weapons because that argument is in itself irrelevant. Firearms aren't and never have been the problem.
    [/thread]
     

    MattFinals718

    Active Member
    Nov 23, 2022
    358
    Arlington, VA
    Don't worry - I haven't forgotten about this thread. Just been busy with buying a house lately. I'd like to continue this discussion.

    Hopefully, the past few weeks have defused the hostility, but probably not.
     

    MattFinals718

    Active Member
    Nov 23, 2022
    358
    Arlington, VA
    It seems your attempting to "lock down" a purposely vague term. It was created to make restrictions on whatever they can convince the increasingly kangaroo judges to pass as law. The more it's used in publication makes it increasing valid until it can be ensconced in Webster.

    No. Looking the same does not make them "almost" the same. One is legal to purchase without a federal tax stamp. The other is not. That autofire switch makes all the difference.

    You clearly haven't read my posts, but to summarize: (1.) I care less about the term, than I do the fact that the 2A community keeps trying to define its way out of its PR problems with defending ownership of certain guns (which I regard as intellectually dishonest), and (2.) I've posted plenty of evidence that the antis did NOT create the term "assault weapon" (nor were they the first to use terms like "assault rifle" and "assault pistol" to describe military-style semi-auto firearms).

    The FCG may make a difference legally, but that's not where I'm coming from. I'm considering what practical difference it makes to a person - especially one of minimal skill and training - who is using the weapon. And despite what Dblas would argue, most people are not buying AR-15s with the expectation that they'll ever need to use break contact tactics in firefights.
     

    scottyfz6

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 22, 2018
    1,380
    Not really sure. I certainly imagine that most of them (not all, though) are at least practical enough to know that will never happen.
    Please go look up the video of D fienstain saying if we had the votes, yes we would make you turn them all in. Not an exact quote, but she and other purists would take every firearm from every civilian in a heart beat. I would bet at least half of the lefties feel this way, that's about 25% of the politicians. The other half of the lefties would ban everything that was semi, even if it only held 3 rounds. Take a look at the Australia, they banned pump action shotguns that hold 3 rounds, and are trying to ban bolt action rifles by calling them sniper rifles. What's left, single shot rifle and shotguns, and they will be coming for those in due time.

    Edit to add. I will not be back to this thread don't bother replying to me.

    You maybe be wanting to use your beliefs to define certain weapons. Problem is they ( mga or the ag ) would gladly use a quote of what you said against us in court. Personally if I were you I would delete everything I ( you ) said in this thread. As all of it is doing nothing but proving what they want to say, and just like in a court of law everything can be used against you.

    Mods I implore you delete this entire thread, please.
     
    Last edited:

    ThunderStick

    Active Member
    May 12, 2013
    257
    Garrett County
    ALL OF YOU, are forgetting the weapon of the day that won the Revolutionary War and WON you the right to spew your opinions here in this thread was the flintlock, single shot, muzzle loading rifle. If one of those were pointed at you, YOU'VE BEEN ASSAULTED.
     

    pcfixer

    Ultimate Member
    May 24, 2009
    5,955
    Marylandstan
    Because the thread on the Supreme Court remanding ("remit" [sic]) cases back to the lower court is so sidetracked as to be impossible for people actually interested in the court's decisions to follow, it seems to deserve its own thread.

    Please post your crazy-ass, long winded opinions over here.

    What does the term 'assault weapon' even mean? from what I've seen, I'm sure someone has a two page explanation...
    'assault weapon' even mean?

    Reality IS the meaning a misnomer- no such thing. " : the misnaming of a person in a legal instrument
     

    MattFinals718

    Active Member
    Nov 23, 2022
    358
    Arlington, VA
    Please go look up the video of D fienstain saying if we had the votes, yes we would make you turn them all in. Not an exact quote, but she and other purists would take every firearm from every civilian in a heart beat. I would bet at least half of the lefties feel this way, that's about 25% of the politicians. The other half of the lefties would ban everything that was semi, even if it only held 3 rounds. Take a look at the Australia, they banned pump action shotguns that hold 3 rounds, and are trying to ban bolt action rifles by calling them sniper rifles. What's left, single shot rifle and shotguns, and they will be coming for those in due time.


    You maybe be wanting to use your beliefs to define certain weapons. Problem is they ( mga or the ag ) would gladly use a quote of what you said against us in court. Personally if I were you I would delete everything I ( you ) said in this thread. As all of it is doing nothing but proving what they want to say, and just like in a court of law everything can be used against you.

    Mods I implore you delete this entire thread, please.

    I'm going to reply to you, because I don't agree, and I'm going to defend my perspective.

    Very well aware of what Feinstein said. I've been around this community a long time, so I do understand that there are many on the left who wish they could ban most guns and confiscate them from the people. You misunderstood; what they might want, and what they understand that they are able to do, are two separate things.

    The second para in your post exemplifies what I am pushing back against. You're basically telling me that I should continue to perpetuate lies because the "other side" will use them against us. I don't care what they want to do - I care about the truth. You're also acting as though they do not already use our own statements against us: Things like the Gun Digest Book of Assault Weapons cover that I posted earlier. Statements by our experts (like Larry Vickers) who say that they essentially fired their issued M16s in combat as if they were AR-15s (i.e., semi only). Instead of telling lies, why not just accept that AR-15s are "assault rifles" (albeit neutered versions), and then say, "Who cares - they're protected by the Constitution, and that's all that matters?"

    If you are really so afraid of the truth that you feel the need to suppress it, and you want to encourage the community to suppress it, how are you any different than religious extremists or communists who stamp out free thought? Our community claims to hate authoritarianism, and argues that we need to preserve the RKBA in order to fight it, but yet it practices its own sort of intellectual authoritarianism.

    In closing: I'd also like you to watch this video by a guy who shares my perspective:



    Maybe you should go tell him that he needs to shut up before the antis use his statements against us in court?

    Cool ! Threads over , lock it down .


    You're trying really, really hard to legitimize the concept, and make it all encompassing.

    No, I'm trying to encourage us not to be liars and to simply embrace the Constitution, not try and pretend that an M4 that has a semi-only FCG is somehow a "sporting rifle" because we're afraid to tell the antis to shove it, because firearms designed for military use are the most Constitutionally protected of all.
     

    chilipeppermaniac

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Whatever "looks scary" to a progressive or liberal,!
    Its impossible to list all the ludicrous things I've heard described as "assault". Most of them aren't even real, just scary sounding words.
    THIS.


    My definition. ANY GUN truly is an assault weapon if it can be used/misused to assault someone.
    Take my friend for example. She wound up in Shock Trauma nearly bleeding to death after her husband shot her point blank with .22 hollow points. Then he beat her over the head with the gun before turning a 9mm on himself, ultimately causing his own death.

    We often joke about Murder hammers, but I contend that it is no joke. Fists, knives, cars, alcohol bottles, heroin needles, all assault weapons in my book,. if one applies a comprehensive enough brush stroke to the legal definition of assault.
    To me, the drug cartel Lord is guilty of assault upon the weak, the addict, the vulnerable youth of our society. The spouse that beats the woman with his fist, assault.

    Now, ( sarcasm inserted here) " it is for the children" MOMS,,,,,,,,,,,,," we have to get these evil black weapons of war off the streets." LAWS, MORE LAWS, HOOPS, REGISTRIES that they claim are not to be used to control, confiscate, criminalize the law abiding, legal, gun owner.
     

    Biggfoot44

    Ultimate Member
    Aug 2, 2009
    33,297
    So hypothetically, Larry Vickers owns a Dodge Hellcat . Larry usually drives it 25mph to the grocery store and back.

    So my clapped out '86 Dodge Ares is actually a Super Car . Because if it it will only go 25mph on a good day with a tailwind , it's still a muscle car, because that's as fast as Larry drives .
     

    outrider58

    Eats Bacon Raw
    MDS Supporter
    Jul 29, 2014
    50,074
    insult weapon.jpg
     

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