AR15 lower > .300 BLK

[subman]

About 5-6 years ago I purchased an AR15 lower and built a .223/.556 rifle. As I understand it I can never convert this into a .300 pistol since I made it into a rifle first? That really sucks if true. Also, what is the shortest barrel length I can legally use for a .300 BLK to remain legal, is it 16"?

 

[lazarus]

That is correct.

Yes, 16". Unless the muzzle device is permanently installed. If that is the case, you can use a shorter than 16" barrel length, so long as the overall length from the rear of the chamber to the tip of whatever is on the end of the barrel is 16"+.

 

[subman]

That is correct.

Yes, 16". Unless the muzzle device is permanently installed. If that is the case, you can use a shorter than 16" barrel length, so long as the overall length from the rear of the chamber to the tip of whatever is on the end of the barrel is 16"+.

Thank you for the confirmation. :-(

 

[RRomig]

I’m not sure I see it that way. You built it and it has never left your possession so I will assume it has never been registered as a rifle. So I don’t see how you are shoehorned into anything. In this case your a manufacturer that has never assigned these parts as anything. The last ATF record shows it as a lower. I can take in a rifle into my A&D book and then transfer it out to the company. Then transfer it back into my book as a lower and send it out as such. If it goes into private hands it’ll be know as a lower to the ATF until it finds its way back to another A&D book. I’m a 7 ffl not a lawyer so take it for what it’s worth but my personal “parts” are just that, parts.

 

[shiza]

I agree, if you purchased it as lower and it has not been registered as a rifle in any capacity I don't see why you couldn't convert it to a pistol. Always thought that was the advantage of purchasing stripped lowers.

 

[lazarus]

I’m not sure I see it that way. You built it and it has never left your possession so I will assume it has never been registered as a rifle. So I don’t see how you are shoehorned into anything. In this case your a manufacturer that has never assigned these parts as anything. The last ATF record shows it as a lower. I can take in a rifle into my A&D book and then transfer it out to the company. Then transfer it back into my book as a lower and send it out as such. If it goes into private hands it’ll be know as a lower to the ATF until it finds its way back to another A&D book. I’m a 7 ffl not a lawyer so take it for what it’s worth but my personal “parts” are just that, parts.

Sure. However, the ATF rules are what they are.

Generally breaking rules is not a great idea. Especially if it is trackable on what something used to be. Like posting pictures of your lower living its life as a rifle before a pistol. Asking questions about it while sharing that you built it as a rifle first. That sort of thing.

Realistically, how would you ever be caught? Also realistically, people occasionally get in deep crap for stuff they put on the internet years ago and forgot about.

 

[RRomig]

Sure. However, the ATF rules are what they are.

Generally breaking rules is not a great idea. Especially if it is trackable on what something used to be. Like posting pictures of your lower living its life as a rifle before a pistol. Asking questions about it while sharing that you built it as a rifle first. That sort of thing.

Realistically, how would you ever be caught? Also realistically, people occasionally get in deep crap for stuff they put on the internet years ago and forgot about.

I think you are looking at this from the perspective that the ATF intended you to that a civilian cannot buy a rifle and make it into a pistol. This part as the ATF sees it isn’t a rifle until it gets logged into an A&D book or a manufacturer ledger as such.
In this case he bought a lower. He in this case is a manufacturer for his own personal use. He can take his parts and assemble them as he likes in any legal configuration as many times as he likes until it is registered with the ATF as a rifle.
That’s how I see it and I think we could get people on both sides of the conversation from the ATF.

Just checked in with one of the ATF agents I deal with and he agreed with the way I see it that it is registered as a lower and will remain that way until it gets logged in as something different.

 

[5pins]

Once a rifle always a rifle unless you SBR it and pay the tax.

The NFA, Title 26, United States Code (U.S.C.), Chapter 53, requires that persons manufacturing, importing, transferring, or possessing firearms as defined in the NFA comply with the Act’s licensing, registration, and taxation requirements. The NFA defines the term “firearm” at 26 U.S.C. 5845(a) to include “(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;” (“short-barreled rifle”) and “(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length” (“weapon made from a rifle”). The term “rifle” is defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(c) and 27 CFR 479.11 as “a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.” Although not defined in the NFA, the term “pistol” is defined by the Act’s implementing regulations, 27 CFR 479.11, as “a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s)” (emphasis added).

United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Company, 504 U.S. 505 (1992)

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA

 

[RRomig]

Once a rifle always a rifle unless you SBR it and pay the tax.

The NFA, Title 26, United States Code (U.S.C.), Chapter 53, requires that persons manufacturing, importing, transferring, or possessing firearms as defined in the NFA comply with the Act’s licensing, registration, and taxation requirements. The NFA defines the term “firearm” at 26 U.S.C. 5845(a) to include “(3) a rifle having a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length;” (“short-barreled rifle”) and “(4) a weapon made from a rifle if such weapon as modified has an overall length of less than 26 inches or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length” (“weapon made from a rifle”). The term “rifle” is defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(c) and 27 CFR 479.11 as “a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed cartridge to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire a fixed cartridge.” Although not defined in the NFA, the term “pistol” is defined by the Act’s implementing regulations, 27 CFR 479.11, as “a weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s)” (emphasis added).

United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Company, 504 U.S. 505 (1992)

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA

Yeah that’s all correct but it’s oranges to basketballs.
We are not dealing with a registered rifle. We are dealing with a registered lower that can be made into a pistol, rifle or SBR. If it were a registered rifle and we go below 16” it becomes an SBR which is what that law relates to that you posted.
This is why asking a forum can be difficult at times. I’m sure you know your right just as I’m sure I know I am with the op stuck in the middle. He doesn’t know ether of us so I’d say we have essentially Xed each other out.

So I checked in with a different ATF agent who is very by the book and without hesitation she gave me the same answer as the first agent. The customer bought a receiver. He is free to build it however he wants and change it from lower to rifle to lower to pistol etc….

 

[outrider58]

I’m not sure I see it that way. You built it and it has never left your possession so I will assume it has never been registered as a rifle. So I don’t see how you are shoehorned into anything. In this case your a manufacturer that has never assigned these parts as anything. The last ATF record shows it as a lower. I can take in a rifle into my A&D book and then transfer it out to the company. Then transfer it back into my book as a lower and send it out as such. If it goes into private hands it’ll be know as a lower to the ATF until it finds its way back to another A&D book. I’m a 7 ffl not a lawyer so take it for what it’s worth but my personal “parts” are just that, parts.

^^^This. Every lower I build out, I then pronounce "you are from this point forward, a pistol". I will even go as far as putting a 'pistol' upper on it, but I don't see it being binding or necessary. Then I build it to whatever.

 

[smokey]

Surely you built the lower with a blank buffer tube... you know, in a pistol configuration... before putting a stock over the buffer tube. Being built into a pistol first, you can go back and forth between pistol and rifle as long as it stays under your ownership.

 

[jcutonilli]

Sure. However, the ATF rules are what they are.

Generally breaking rules is not a great idea. Especially if it is trackable on what something used to be. Like posting pictures of your lower living its life as a rifle before a pistol. Asking questions about it while sharing that you built it as a rifle first. That sort of thing.

Realistically, how would you ever be caught? Also realistically, people occasionally get in deep crap for stuff they put on the internet years ago and forgot about.

I think you are looking at this from the perspective that the ATF intended you to that a civilian cannot buy a rifle and make it into a pistol. This part as the ATF sees it isn’t a rifle until it gets logged into an A&D book or a manufacturer ledger as such.
In this case he bought a lower. He in this case is a manufacturer for his own personal use. He can take his parts and assemble them as he likes in any legal configuration as many times as he likes until it is registered with the ATF as a rifle.
That’s how I see it and I think we could get people on both sides of the conversation from the ATF.

Just checked in with one of the ATF agents I deal with and he agreed with the way I see it that it is registered as a lower and will remain that way until it gets logged in as something different.

The problem with an ATF interpretation is that it may change in the future.

The best that can be said is that it is in a grey area of the law. Some may want to stay out of this area, others may not.

As to how you would be caught, one way is self incrimination. The OP could be used against that person. You may be questioned about what you did with a lower and if you acknowledge that it was a rifle before it was a pistol, they may decide to charge you.

If you want to venture into a grey area, then you want to understand how to conduct yourself to stay on the correct side of the law.

The Thompson Center case https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Thompson-Center_Arms_Co. certainly suggests it may not be as much of an issue as some have suggested, but the circumstances are not exactly the same.

 

[Biggfoot44]

5 Pins is Right .

RRomig is discussing the likelihood of getting caught .

 

[outrider58]

Surely you built the lower with a blank buffer tube... you know, in a pistol configuration... before putting a stock over the buffer tube. Being built into a pistol first, you can go back and forth between pistol and rifle as long as it stays under your ownership.

Does not have to be a slick buffer tube.

 

[RRomig]

5 Pins is Right .

RRomig is discussing the likelihood of getting caught .

Don’t tell me or anyone else that I’m ever discussing weather or not it’s about being caught!!
Not sure where you came up with that shyt but your way the fvck off.
I’m an ffl that never lives in the gray and have gladly lost customers over it. I wouldn’t call two agents and ask if I was looking for gray area. The law is about taking a “registered rifle” and changing it to a pistol. We are talking about a “registered lower” staying in the possession of the original buyer. He is free to go back and forth.
You can’t understand that fine but don’t attack my character.

Did you even bother to read all of my post

 

[outrider58]

5 Pins is Right .

RRomig is discussing the likelihood of getting caught .

5 Pins is talking about NFA and Rifles. OP bought a regulated gun part not listed as a rifle.

 

[subman]

Correct, I purchased a stripped lower.. and had to wait 7 day jail time to take possession (using my HQL)..just as if I were buying a handgun. I specifically purchased a lower (vice buying an AR rifle) so that I could have the flexibility but then I read on these forums that if I made it into a rifle first I lose that flexibility.

 

[Mr. Anderson]

Registered Lowers follow the rules of whatever upper is on them.
Prove me wrong

 

[5pins]

It has nothing to do with registration. If it was assembled into a rifle the first time, it is a rifle.

The quote I gave above is from the Thompson case handed down by the court, not the ATF.

United States v. Thompson/Center Arms Company, 504 U.S. 505 (1992)

Held further, a firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(4), is made when a handgun or other weapon with an overall length of less than 26 inches, or a barrel or barrels of less than 16 inches in length, is assembled or produced from a weapon originally assembled or produced only as a rifle. Such weapons must be registered and are subject to all requirements of the NFA

 

[RRomig]

Correct, I purchased a stripped lower.. and had to wait 7 day jail time to take possession (using my HQL)..just as if I were buying a handgun. I specifically purchased a lower (vice buying an AR rifle) so that I could have the flexibility but then I read on these forums that if I made it into a rifle first I lose that flexibility.

You don’t
I’ve backed up my statements with two conversations today with the ATF. Both without hesitation said it’s a lower and the owner can build it , disassemble it and build it again going from rifle to pistol etc… I encourage you to do the same and talk with the ATF as no one else so far has seemed to do. If you get a different answer than I received I would greatly appreciate the name and number so I can put them in touch with my agents and let them hash this out.
Thanks and good luck.