What did you learn at your Wear & Carry training class that you didn't know before attending?

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  • Mr. Ed

    This IS my Happy Face
    MDS Supporter
    Jun 8, 2009
    7,899
    Edgewater
    You should do secret shopper videos.
    Yeah, but the problem with that is trying not to call her out every time she spouts off incorrect ********. Hard to imagine anybody with Blaster's experience lasting more than a couple of minutes before things got interesting. Actually, that might be a great show!
     

    4g64loser

    Bad influence
    Jan 18, 2007
    6,381
    maryland
    Yeah, but the problem with that is trying not to call her out every time she spouts off incorrect ********. Hard to imagine anybody with Blaster's experience lasting more than a couple of minutes before things got interesting. Actually, that might be a great show!
    Sell tickets?
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    I learned two things.

    1) Most of the people who were taking the class should not be allowed around guns or should be required to have more training before they carry… one student got their finger stuck in the chamber while practicing clearing the training weapons.

    2) If ever in a situation where you might need to draw and fire, you have to worry about every other person around you with possible permit as well and how they might interpret your use of your firearm. Possible friendly fire due to confusion and stress in a situation. So you are required to process a lot more about the situation be you react.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Your last is the primary reason why in the event of a mass shooting, unfortunately you really should just bug out unless you are directly observing the shooting going on/directly involved. Or really any shooting.

    A) You don't know if the mass shooter is working alone. You may draw and find out his buddy is directly behind you, watching you draw.
    B) If you go running towards the sound of gun fire, with a firearm drawn, another CCW may observe you and assume you are the mass shooter
    C) A LEO may observe you running towards the sound of gun fire with a drawn weapon and assume you are a mass shooter
    D) By the time you arrive, even if you successfully engage the mass shooter, another CCW or LEO may arrive just in time to assume you are the mass shooter or that there was more than one and ventilate you before you have a chance to put away your firearm or indicate you are in fact a friend
    E) You may observe a CCW or plain clothes LEO draw and assume they are a bad guy, or see said person run on scene with a firearm drawn and assume they are a bad guy
    F) Does an innocent person get in the crossfire and you hit them?

    Just so much that can go wrong. I am not saying you should not attempt to end it, but you have to spend more time and hesitation if you do decide to, also with the understand you need to do EVERYTHING right and nothing wrong. And even if you do, you are at risk from the mass shooter, any armed (or even unarmed) bystander (unarmed person running from mass shooter sees someone else pulls a gun and thinks they are involved and now tackles you and starts beating on you), and any responding LEO.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    Bullets go really fast. If the people in the rows between you and the Row 1 Murderer are still seated (or ducking, etc), your shot at the bad guy is going to make the trip across those three or so yards in a hundredth of a second. Shooting over their heads at the bad guy is better than shooting over their corpses. Obviously every situation (and every single trigger pull IN each situation) is a judgement call. But the law is about criminal recklessness when using a firearm, and not in any way specific about what that means (like "shooting over someone's head"). Because each requires a reasonableness test from a jury. I'm 6'2", and can shoot over the heads (especially of people in lower rows in front of me) even when a lot of them are standing up. The instructor's generalization isn't constructive, and the assertion about illegality based on whose heads are where is just silliness.
    True. On the other hand, unless fast like ninja, it may still take you a quarter second or more to actually pull the trigger once you have decided to engage the shooter and you are very likely to be suffering from tunnel vision or be starting to suffer from tunnel vision. Which means you may have initially seen bystanders, but you may not see them start to react like standing up.

    Never been in an active shooter situation or shot at anything 2 legged, but I've missed shots on deer because between the time I've decided to shoot them and the time my brain engages my trigger finger, I pull through the break, and the gun actually discharges and the bullet gets there, the deer started to step forward, stand up, lean over, etc. And in that time, it moved a foot and the bullet went whizzing by.

    Add in tunnel vision in an active shooter situation and that person may have started to stand up rather than duck or jump to the side from their seat and you have even more limited time to process that as you are deciding to shoot.

    At any rate, as others have said, there is no law too cite saying shooting over people to engage and eliminate a threat is illegal. It is not.

    And that isn't to say people are going to be F-ing morons and jump straight up and stand up straight as someone in a theater or church is shooting. They likely will not.

    However, you are still going to be held responsible for anyone injured or killed who isn't the shooter if it can be shown you hit them. Even if you do eliminate the shooter. If you had a badge, you'd probably face some uncomfortable interviews and you might have the knowledge that a civil suit gets filed against your department. If you are really unlucky, you might get something in your personnel records, some desk duty or vacation time at home with pay while it is all being investigated, and possibly be told you need some remedial training and that would likely be it.

    As a civilian, you'll be lucky if you don't get charged and possibly convicted of manslaughter or negligent homicide if you hit someone and they die, or aggravated assault if they are just injured. And you are almost certainly going to face a lawsuit. And if you lose it, it is you that is ruined, not the department/city/county/state that has to ask for a little more money next year.
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,409
    Glen Burnie
    Every active shooter scenario I've been in ends up with with good guys getting shot.
    My recommendation is if you don't get your shooting in within the first minute or so, beat feet if possible.
    Do it before responders arrive.
    Holster it if feasible. Just don't have anything in your hands if possible.
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    The gun training was driving me nuts. They taught the old thumb-on-thumb grip instead of a modern thumbs forward grip. They kept walking by and "correcting" me to put my support thumb down. When we got the holsters, I tossed it appendix like I carry. She said I had to put it small of the back because, "appendix makes you more likely to sweep other people around you when drawing" and "small of the back carry is the best tactically" because it's "illegal if you print" because "we are getting a concealed carry permit". I just ran it 4 o'clock instead.

    We then got taught a compressed position with strong side elbow on our hip, instead of a more modern pectoral index with the base plate near your pec. I asked if it would be a good idea to can't the slide away from your body(a guy next to me was effectively plastering the slide to his belly) and I was told casting the slide away from your body makes the gun more likely to malfunction. And on and on and on.
    Amusingly my instructor said you shouldn't do small of the back. The why was, "I knew a cop who carried that way who slipped down a flight of steps and landed on the small of his back. His gun concentrated the impacted and crushed his spine leaving him paralyzed".

    That did give me a bit of thought on how clumsy I am and I could see slipping on ice in the winter of something and coming down on my butt or back. Perhaps not something I'd worry about in the every day. I'll still need to figure out how I am most comfortable carrying, but IMHO I think for me it is 4 o'clock.
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,409
    Glen Burnie
    Amusingly my instructor said you shouldn't do small of the back. The why was, "I knew a cop who carried that way who slipped down a flight of steps and landed on the small of his back. His gun concentrated the impacted and crushed his spine leaving him paralyzed".

    That did give me a bit of thought on how clumsy I am and I could see slipping on ice in the winter of something and coming down on my butt or back. Perhaps not something I'd worry about in the every day. I'll still need to figure out how I am most comfortable carrying, but IMHO I think for me it is 4 o'clock.
    SOB is not about crushing your spine.
    It's about properly retaining it and drawing it. There is literally nothing tactically sound about it.
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,409
    Glen Burnie
    Yeah, but the problem with that is trying not to call her out every time she spouts off incorrect ********. Hard to imagine anybody with Blaster's experience lasting more than a couple of minutes before things got interesting. Actually, that might be a great show!
    When they first opened, I gave them a resume and nothing came from it obviously. I think even back then they were ensconced in their ways of fail.
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,775
    Bel Air
    Yeah, but the problem with that is trying not to call her out every time she spouts off incorrect ********. Hard to imagine anybody with Blaster's experience lasting more than a couple of minutes before things got interesting. Actually, that might be a great show!
    That's the whole idea!
     

    pbharvey

    Habitual Testifier
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 27, 2012
    30,154
    Amusingly my instructor said you shouldn't do small of the back. The why was, "I knew a cop who carried that way who slipped down a flight of steps and landed on the small of his back. His gun concentrated the impacted and crushed his spine leaving him paralyzed".

    That did give me a bit of thought on how clumsy I am and I could see slipping on ice in the winter of something and coming down on my butt or back. Perhaps not something I'd worry about in the every day. I'll still need to figure out how I am most comfortable carrying, but IMHO I think for me it is 4 o'clock.
    cops on vacation...
     

    lazarus

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 23, 2015
    13,678
    cops on vacation...

    Oh ship!

    Like, the moment he started to flip up I knew it was going end badly. Not to disparage those of larger size, but I think we can all see how mister "I've never been a gymnast in my life, but I might have just consumed one" was going to end this one.

    And I don't want to know just how much alcohol it took to get to the point of all involved thinking "this is going to be epic!"
     

    rbird7282

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Dec 6, 2012
    18,531
    Columbia
    If folks are talking about the woman who owns W.A.S. I heard all that crap from her when I took a class from her years ago. She even said she requires all her staff to carry at the small of their backs. It's a shame that she can get away with teaching that BS, and a good thing that she's no longer active duty.

    I’d rather have her active duty than teaching all of this crap to civilians.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     

    TRON 2.0

    Free light cycle rides
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 13, 2011
    164
    PG county
    Well found another thing that was wrong in the class… we were told you could only carry 10 round mags +1 in the chamber. I called out that the law stated you couldn’t buy, transfer, sell anything that holds more than 10 rounds and that it doesn’t state anything about using or carrying mags that hold more than 10 rounds. I was shut down and told multiple times you can’t carry more than 10+1. Didn’t help that I showed the law.

    I was just catching up on the thread about the zoom call on 8/4 and they said the call confirmed you could carry any mag capacity you wanted…. So another incorrect training statement.

    Post in thread 'To those joining the MSP zoom meeting just use the join meeting button'
    https://www.mdshooters.com/threads/...e-the-join-meeting-button.267507/post-6737082
     

    JohnnyE

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 18, 2013
    9,462
    MoCo
    Maryland is a two-party (really an all-party) notice state with regard to electronic recording. You cannot legally record unless everyone is aware. In most states, only one person, invariably the person in the room with the recorder, has to know.
     

    4g64loser

    Bad influence
    Jan 18, 2007
    6,381
    maryland
    Maryland is a two-party (really an all-party) notice state with regard to electronic recording. You cannot legally record unless everyone is aware. In most states, only one person, invariably the person in the room with the recorder, has to know.
    Only WRT places with an expectation of privacy and, IIRC, specific to audio.

    Example: walking down the public sidewalk adjacent a public street while recording audio/video is not illegal because nobody in the venue has an expectation of privacy.

    Recording audio of a person in a private residence without notification/consent would be the opposite end of the spectrum and thus illegal.
     

    JohnnyE

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Jan 18, 2013
    9,462
    MoCo
    Only WRT places with an expectation of privacy and, IIRC, specific to audio.

    Example: walking down the public sidewalk adjacent a public street while recording audio/video is not illegal because nobody in the venue has an expectation of privacy.

    Recording audio of a person in a private residence without notification/consent would be the opposite end of the spectrum and thus illegal.
    Thanks for the important clarification.
     

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