Armed Teachers

[HaveBlue]

Yes, if they have a gun. You think there won't be a teacher at some point who decides to pull a gun because a kid takes a swing?

That's a pretty extreme example to base a broad policy on. If someone (strong enough to incapacitate me) takes a serious swing at me, I would pull my firearm for a variety of reasons. Why is a 5' 2" female teacher duty bound to take a beating from a 6' 200Lb 17 year old? Just because they are at school?

De-escalation training is still critically important. Yes, the response to a shooter/mass shooter is stop them ASAP. However, with access to a firearm...sometimes everything is a nail when you have a hammer to some people.

I completely disagree. Generally, the best way address a nail is to use a hammer. I don't think any civilian (or teacher) should be encouraged to gamble with dozens of lives. Nor should they be made to feel guilty afterward for not giving "rifle pointing Billy" a chance to redeem himself at the last moment. They should have a school named in their honor for ensuring the survival of every other child. The option for de-escalation expired the moment he entered the school -and- presented a lethal threat to other people there.

 

[KRC]

Thousands of handguns worn by thousands of poorly trained teachers in thousands of classrooms where administrative support for discipline is often non-existent, especially in the worst schools. Not a good plan. (Many teachers may not want to accept the professional and legal liability that would be associated with a classroom carry mistake. And Monday morning quarterbacks will find the "mistakes" of others in a CYA situation.)

School and mass shootings are a problem with complex causes and NO SIMPLE SOLUTIONS. Arming teachers sounds like a good idea, but in real life it will lead to major problems.

Walk through a puddle of dish detergent on a hard surface floor and see how well you can maneuver, while trying to aim with a face full of wasp spray while being hit in the head with 1/2" steel bearings.

 

[Boondock Saint]

Thousands of handguns worn by thousands of poorly trained teachers in thousands of classrooms where administrative support for discipline is often non-existent, especially in the worst schools. Not a good plan. (Many teachers may not want to accept the professional and legal liability that would be associated with a classroom carry mistake. And Monday morning quarterbacks will find the "mistakes" of others in a CYA situation.)

School and mass shootings are a problem with complex causes and NO SIMPLE SOLUTIONS. Arming teachers sounds like a good idea, but in real life it will lead to major problems.

Walk through a puddle of dish detergent on a hard surface floor and see how well you can maneuver, while trying to aim with a face full of wasp spray while being hit in the head with 1/2" steel bearings.

I would expect that most/all people would prefer to negotiate the obstacles you outlined as opposed to being the target of someone with a firearm. I wonder, too, if it is a violation of federal law to use that wasp spray in a manner inconsistent with its labeling.

As mentioned above, your nightmare scenario of armed teachers in classrooms is already a thing. Such a complex situation can be second and third guessed ad nauseum, but the truth of the matter is that it takes a good guy with a gun to stop a bad guy with a gun. Absent suicide or ammo exhaustion, that's it. The rest is speculation and conjecture.

Personally, I would prefer that good guy to already be in the building (perhaps even in the same classroom) and have a vested interest in protecting not only themselves, but children who would have an armed predator among them in an active shooter.

 

[eruby]

I would expect that most/all people would prefer to negotiate the obstacles you outlined as opposed to being the target of someone with a firearm. I wonder, too, if it is a violation of federal law to use that wasp spray in a manner inconsistent with its labeling.

As mentioned above, your nightmare scenario of armed teachers in classrooms is already a thing. Such a complex situation can be second and third guessed ad nauseum, but the truth of the matter is that it takes a good guy with a gun to stop a bad guy with a gun. Absent suicide or ammo exhaustion, that's it. The rest is speculation and conjecture.

Personally, I would prefer that good guy to already be in the building (perhaps even in the same classroom) and have a vested interest in protecting not only themselves, but children who would have an armed predator among them in an active shooter.

100% spot on!!

John Blutarsky weeps.

And yes, it's a federal crime to misuse wasp spray.

 

[19mace92]

I have a toddler going into pre-school this year so this has been on my mind a lot lately.

I like the idea of teachers having the option to be armed in school. Significant training is a must though, in my opinion. Handling a high-stress situation such as a school shooting while also managing several panicked children is no small feat in my mind and should not be left to chance.

 

[19mace92]

I would expect that most/all people would prefer to negotiate the obstacles you outlined as opposed to being the target of someone with a firearm. I wonder, too, if it is a violation of federal law to use that wasp spray in a manner inconsistent with its labeling.

As mentioned above, your nightmare scenario of armed teachers in classrooms is already a thing. Such a complex situation can be second and third guessed ad nauseum, but the truth of the matter is that it takes a good guy with a gun to stop a bad guy with a gun. Absent suicide or ammo exhaustion, that's it. The rest is speculation and conjecture.

Personally, I would prefer that good guy to already be in the building (perhaps even in the same classroom) and have a vested interest in protecting not only themselves, but children who would have an armed predator among them in an active shooter.

Couldn't agree more. Well said.

 

[E.Shell]

Thousands of handguns worn by thousands of poorly trained teachers in thousands of classrooms where administrative support for discipline is often non-existent, especially in the worst schools. Not a good plan. (Many teachers may not want to accept the professional and legal liability that would be associated with a classroom carry mistake. And Monday morning quarterbacks will find the "mistakes" of others in a CYA situation.)

If a teacher does not wish to be armed, there is nothing forcing it upon them. The idea is to provide an effective option to cowering in the corner with the rest of the sheep awaiting slaughter.

Monday Morning Quarterbacks and other ill-qualified naysayers will always exist. They will have no bearing on my behavior, nor should their potential day late/dollar short analysis have influence on someone else fighting for their own life or the life of innocents.

I guess you feel the same way about "thousands of poorly trained" citizens bearing arms as well...

School and mass shootings are a problem with complex causes and NO SIMPLE SOLUTIONS. Arming teachers sounds like a good idea, but in real life it will lead to major problems.

Again, we project that somehow teachers are less competent and cannot be trusted to make good decisions. I would suggest that teachers wishing to be armed would likely take the same steps toward training and understanding the use of deadly force the rest of us do. To assume otherwise is simply an assumption.

Walk through a puddle of dish detergent on a hard surface floor and see how well you can maneuver, while trying to aim with a face full of wasp spray while being hit in the head with 1/2" steel bearings.

"Home Alone IV"

 

[eruby]

If a teacher does not wish to be armed, there is nothing forcing it upon them. The idea is to provide an effective option to cowering in the corner with the rest of the sheep awaiting slaughter.

Monday Morning Quarterbacks and other ill-qualified naysayers will always exist. They will have no bearing on my behavior, nor should their potential day late/dollar short analysis have influence on someone else fighting for their own life or the life of innocents.

I guess you feel the same way about "thousands of poorly trained" citizens bearing arms as well...

Again, we project that somehow teachers are less competent and cannot be trusted to make good decisions. I would suggest that teachers wishing to be armed would likely take the same steps toward training and understanding the use of deadly force the rest of us do. To assume otherwise is simply an assumption.

"Home Alone IV"

Marv and Harry approve of your post, in its entirety.

 

[lazarus]

If a teacher does not wish to be armed, there is nothing forcing it upon them. The idea is to provide an effective option to cowering in the corner with the rest of the sheep awaiting slaughter.

Monday Morning Quarterbacks and other ill-qualified naysayers will always exist. They will have no bearing on my behavior, nor should their potential day late/dollar short analysis have influence on someone else fighting for their own life or the life of innocents.

I guess you feel the same way about "thousands of poorly trained" citizens bearing arms as well...

Again, we project that somehow teachers are less competent and cannot be trusted to make good decisions. I would suggest that teachers wishing to be armed would likely take the same steps toward training and understanding the use of deadly force the rest of us do. To assume otherwise is simply an assumption.

"Home Alone IV"

It is an assumption based on solid evidence that many don’t get training and aren’t interested in training.

This is a case where I believe it shouldn’t be up to the individual to decide if they should and HOPE they are interested in it. Make it mandatory. Make the state pay for it.

 

[adit]

Wasp spray and ball bearings? WTF?

A bucket of rocks is cheaper and just as effective.

Arm the teachers. Look at Israel. This crap doesn't happen there.

 

[Mr. Ed]

I don't have any kids (that I know of, anyway), but I'm in favor of arming properly trained and motivated school personnel. I think that if anybody unauthorized shows up inside a school and presents a weapon that could injure students, or threatens to do so, they have immediately lost their right to life and should be put down on the spot. No negotiation, no de-escalation, no delay. I also think that anybody carrying a gun in a school situation would need the mindset to shoot the bad guy without second guessing.

I would hope that advertising the potential presence of armed staff/teachers in a school would be an effective deterrent to a bad guy.

 

[E.Shell]

It is an assumption based on solid evidence that many don’t get training and aren’t interested in training.

And there is evidence just as solid that indicates that training (or its equivalent) is necessary to carry in this state at all, interested or not.

This is a case where I believe it shouldn’t be up to the individual to decide if they should and HOPE they are interested in it. Make it mandatory. Make the state pay for it.

I agree that training is VERY important and would really like to see everyone who would carry a firearm have training. I would stop short of "mandatory", because that immediately places us on that slippery slope of meeting government standards (government approval) to exercise a right.

I would suggest that any teacher taking it upon themselves to be the armed and final barrier between children and an active shooter will probably have/want enhanced* training, but I'd much rather have someone without formal training than no one at all.

*"enhanced" training would far exceed the largely empty check-the-box exercise dictated by our state.

 

[smokey]

Walk through a puddle of dish detergent on a hard surface floor and see how well you can maneuver, while trying to aim with a face full of wasp spray while being hit in the head with 1/2" steel bearings.

Why stop there with the looney tunes response to an active shooter, string up a piano to drop on their head as well.

 

[HaveBlue]

Thousands of handguns worn by thousands of poorly trained teachers in thousands of classrooms where administrative support for discipline is often non-existent, especially in the worst schools. Not a good plan. (Many teachers may not want to accept the professional and legal liability that would be associated with a classroom carry mistake. And Monday morning quarterbacks will find the "mistakes" of others in a CYA situation.)

Everything you’re saying makes complete sense to me. With respect, we know what happens when we don't arm teachers. We do already have many schools throughout the country with armed staff. None of the issues, you’ve identified have surfaced.

School and mass shootings are a problem with complex causes and NO SIMPLE SOLUTIONS. Arming teachers sounds like a good idea, but in real life it will lead to major problems.

Many folks think the same sort of catastrophic failures will happen in New York City.

Walk through a puddle of dish detergent on a hard surface floor and see how well you can maneuver, while trying to aim with a face full of wasp spray while being hit in the head with 1/2" steel bearings.

 

[smokey]

Well, I certainly cannot get into all of it here. But the shooting portion certainly doesn't involve 25 and 15 yard shots.
Suffice it to say this. A teacher needs to act like an active shooter who has barricaded in a classroom.
An active shooter will usually be alone and it's MUCH easier to get 1 person coming through that door(in the fatal funnel)than a team of 2,4,6(even regular officers).
Also doors. I'm spitballing here....Is it 1, center fed door? Or 1 or 2, corner fed doors? Herd all the kids on the hinge side(behind the door) when it opens and you be ready to take that shot when he comes through.
Honestly, I'd prefer the door to be unlocked so I could end it right there. But that's me. It's not hard. Too many variables to type here. like I said, it's championing the passion and confidence for a teacher to take the shot when/if it happens.

Awesome posts. by far the best option for armed teachers is securing kids in a good location within their room away from the LOCKED door with covered window and readying themselves to fire on any threat coming through the door. It's relatively easy to be effective in this manner. Also, it's what we currently train for in lockdown procedures. The only difference is being able to shoot the threat coming through the door instead of being a human shield for your children.

If teachers must actively confront a threat, something has gone wrong. In my case, it's probably that we're getting attacked while I'm outside on the field. Out there, I have no door to lock and only the option to have the kids flee to safety as I engage the threat.

Because I'll likely need to engage a threat within a crowd of kids AND may likely run into law enforcement in the process, I understand I'll likely be shot in the process. It's because closing distance to the threat will likely be necessary to be able to minimize a chance of hitting someone inadvertently. If communication can't happen VERY fast, I may also be shot by responding law enforcement.

Any teacher carrying at work should understand and accept these realities. I'm 100% fine with taking fire from a threat if it means my kids AREN'T being shot at. I'm 100% fine getting popped inadvertently by law enforcement if it's in the process of stopping my kids from being hurt.

 

[Norton]

Awesome posts. by far the best option for armed teachers is securing kids in a good location within their room away from the LOCKED door with covered window and readying themselves to fire on any threat coming through the door. It's relatively easy to be effective in this manner. Also, it's what we currently train for in lockdown procedures. The only difference is being able to shoot the threat coming through the door instead of being a human shield for your children.

If teachers must actively confront a threat, something has gone wrong. In my case, it's probably that we're getting attacked while I'm outside on the field. Out there, I have no door to lock and only the option to have the kids flee to safety as I engage the threat.

Because I'll likely need to engage a threat within a crowd of kids AND may likely run into law enforcement in the process, I understand I'll likely be shot in the process. It's because closing distance to the threat will likely be necessary to be able to minimize a chance of hitting someone inadvertently. If communication can't happen VERY fast, I may also be shot by responding law enforcement.

Any teacher carrying at work should understand and accept these realities. I'm 100% fine with taking fire from a threat if it means my kids AREN'T being shot at. I'm 100% fine getting popped inadvertently by law enforcement if it's in the process of stopping my kids from being hurt.

This is the point that's being missed, and in some venues it's an intentional deception.

There's none of us that are going to be going all Operator (tm) and prowling the halls with a perfect glide step, appropriate hat, wrap around glasses, and a tactical beard looking to hunt down the threat. That's not my role any more than it is in a situation outside of the classroom on the street. It's not my job to go towards the threat.

However, being locked in a dead end classroom with no other egress with a bunch of kids is an entirely different scenario. I've joked in the past that the reason they want us to do that is so it's more convenient to I.D. the bodies in one place. In those rooms, give me a fvcking .38 revolver at the very least as a means of dealing with the exigent threat that is coming through the door.

At that point, what other options are there?

I know, wasp spray and dish detergent.

Fvck that. At that point I am jamming scissors into someone's neck if you can't give me a more effective means of defending myself and others.

 

[Blacksmith101]

".......while being hit in the head with 1/2" steel bearings."

It probably takes more training to hit a head with a slingshot than it does to become proficient in the Mozambique Drill with a handgun at classroom distances. I have sat in a classroom with 30 students during a lockdown wishing I had something more substantial than a whiteboard eraser as a weapon in case it wasn't just a drill.

There are quite a number of school systems that have provisions for arming teachers so we probably already have "thousands of armed teachers" and you don't see headlines and they would be BIG headlines of teachers missusing firearms. Law abiding permit holding civilians are among the most law abiding people in this country.

From a Rand Study

The Effects of Laws Allowing Armed Staff in K–12 Schools​

"As of January 1, 2020, 28 states allow schools to arm teachers or staff in at least some cases or as part of a specific program.[1]"
Footnote
"1.Alabama, Arkansas, Colorado, Florida, Georgia, Hawaii, Idaho, Indiana, Iowa, Kansas, Massachusetts, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Montana, New Hampshire, New Jersey, North Dakota, Ohio, Oklahoma, Oregon, South Dakota, Tennessee, Texas, Utah, Washington, and Wyoming. See Ivey, 2018; Crime Prevention Research Center, 2018b; Hernandez, 2018; Fla. Stat. § 1006.12; Ga. Code Ann. § 20-8-5; Hawaii Rev. Stat. § 302A-1134(b); Ida. Code Ann. § 18-3302D; Ind. Code Ann. § 35-47-9-1(a); Ia. Code § 724.4B; Kan. Stat. Ann. § 75-7c10; Mass. Gen. Laws Ann. Ch. 269, § 10; Mich. Comp. Laws Ann. § 750.237a; Minn. Stat. § 609.66 subdivision 1d, item 8; Miss. Code Ann. § 97-37-17; Mo. Ann. Stat. § 571.107; Mont. Code Ann. § 45-8-361; N.H. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 193:13; N.J. Stat. Ann. 2C:39-5; N.D. Cent. Code § 62.1-02-14; Ohio Rev. Code § 2923.122(B); 21 Okla. Stat. Ann. § 1277; Ore. Rev. Stat. Ann. § 166.370; S.D. Codified Laws § 13-64-1; Tenn. Code Ann. § 49-6-816; Tex. Educ. Code Ann. § 37.0811; Utah Code Ann. § 76-10-505.5; Knicely, 2018; Wyo. Stat. Ann. § 21-3-132. "

Link to the Rand study (which says they could not find any studies that met their criteria):
However it gives a good report on the states that allow arming teachers and/or staff and the laws involved.
https://www.rand.org/research/gun-policy/analysis/laws-allowing-armed-staff-in-K12-schools.html#:~:text=Several states, including Colorado, Montana,carry firearms on school property.

 

[Blaster229]

A shooter in the cafeteria is more like what an Air Marshal would train for. Where 240 hours and thousands of rounds would only be enough if they started with the right candidate. This isn't the sort of situation schools are prepared for today either. And Teachers shouldn't be leaving the kids start "clearing rooms".

Well, we were training active shooter when we weren't training in fuselages.

 

[Burt Hammersmith]

I have a toddler going into pre-school this year so this has been on my mind a lot lately.

I like the idea of teachers having the option to be armed in school. Significant training is a must though, in my opinion. Handling a high-stress situation such as a school shooting while also managing several panicked children is no small feat in my mind and should not be left to chance.

Homeschool.

You don’t have to worry about some armed militant woman brainwashing your children that their daddy and mommy are racist fascist bigots for teaching them what’s right.

I have 3 kids and another on the way, my wife homeschools them.

 

[Biggfoot44]

The SRO's here are full-time sworn armed BCoPD officers. Where are you talking about?

Different things .

SRO are Officers of the surrounding general LE Agency , who happen to be asigned duty at a school .

A School Police agency , is a department that is actually part of a school system .