Thoughts on American Pioneer Powder?

[The Saint]

I've recently switched over from Pyrodex to APP for almost everything percussion. For years I used Pyrodex, and still never had a problem with it...but cleaning and margin-of-error wise it is by far the most corrosive of all the BP subs. For the record, I've nothing against Pyrodex, and it works exactly as it should. Switching to APP has cut my cleanup time in half, and in certain things like shotguns it's legitimately no worse than smokeless cleanup. Seriously, shoot the gun all day...1 wet patch and some oil and the gun is done in minutes. I also really love the fact you talk to the owner when you call, too. I'm huge on supporting small business, and I'm a believer in the product now. Here's a pro/con list I've worked up for it:

Pros:
-Almost exact velocity match to actual BP
-Produces just as much smoke and fire as any BP or sub does
-Cleans up almost as easily as smokeless; a HUGE game changer to many who hate cleaning
-Doesn't foul barrels up or require cleaning patches through a shooting session even if basically no lubes are used
-Small business and owners are great guys with a product that simply works as advertised
-Price is about the same as any other sub, minus the more expensive Triple 7
-Granules are large for 2 and 3F compared to other subs, so bulks up density fantastic in cartridge/shotshell use
-Doesn't require massive compression from bullet to get a fantastic ignition; light compression is all you need (due to granule size)

Cons:
-Granules are, as mentioned above, huge in comparison to other 2/3F powders...so normal flask spout holes will have to be very wide to dispense it without clogging. Works best with a scoop, and this mostly only happens with 2F. My biggest con, and using a scoop or shotgun dipper into a powder measure instead of flask solves this problem.
-Smell might not appeal to all...it's a bit more acrid and sour than BP, but I've come to enjoy it just like I did Pyrodex. Is this really a con?
-Might not be the best choice in things 36 caliber or smaller because of granule size...for me I don't use it in .32s yet, but will be trying it before too long as well.

What about you guys? Thoughts? Comments? Questions? Other?

 

[rseymorejr]

I've recently switched over from Pyrodex to APP for almost everything percussion. For years I used Pyrodex, and still never had a problem with it...but cleaning and margin-of-error wise it is by far the most corrosive of all the BP subs. For the record, I've nothing against Pyrodex, and it works exactly as it should. Switching to APP has cut my cleanup time in half, and in certain things like shotguns it's legitimately no worse than smokeless cleanup. Seriously, shoot the gun all day...1 wet patch and some oil and the gun is done in minutes. I also really love the fact you talk to the owner when you call, too. I'm huge on supporting small business, and I'm a believer in the product now. Here's a pro/con list I've worked up for it:

Pros:
-Almost exact velocity match to actual BP
-Produces just as much smoke and fire as any BP or sub does
-Cleans up almost as easily as smokeless; a HUGE game changer to many who hate cleaning
-Doesn't foul barrels up or require cleaning patches through a shooting session even if basically no lubes are used
-Small business and owners are great guys with a product that simply works as advertised
-Price is about the same as any other sub, minus the more expensive Triple 7
-Granules are large for 2 and 3F compared to other subs, so bulks up density fantastic in cartridge/shotshell use
-Doesn't require massive compression from bullet to get a fantastic ignition; light compression is all you need (due to granule size)

Cons:
-Granules are, as mentioned above, huge in comparison to other 2/3F powders...so normal flask spout holes will have to be very wide to dispense it without clogging. Works best with a scoop, and this mostly only happens with 2F. My biggest con, and using a scoop or shotgun dipper into a powder measure instead of flask solves this problem.
-Smell might not appeal to all...it's a bit more acrid and sour than BP, but I've come to enjoy it just like I did Pyrodex. Is this really a con?
-Might not be the best choice in things 36 caliber or smaller because of granule size...for me I don't use it in .32s yet, but will be trying it before too long as well.

What about you guys? Thoughts? Comments? Questions? Other?

You had me at "Less clean up time"

I have 12 10 Gauge shotshells loaded up with it now. As soon as I make it out to the range to shoot them up I'll be able to tell you more. I'm expecting I won't be disappointed.

 

[Melnic]

I started with APP when I got into a side lock. I used it to break in the barrel and get a lot of shooting time with a 54 sidelock. I had to keep my patch ultra clean from the cap to the breech but it worked. I agree about it being cleaner than real black powder and that the 2F granuals were big. My accuracy was not as good with it though. I ended up using it for making 45 Colt BP loads and was just fine for that use.

Have you noticed any differences in accuracy? When I was using it with the 54 I worked up a load with real Black Powder, and then searched around the same range with aPP and the real BP shot about 20% tighter groups.

 

[The Saint]

You had me at "Less clean up time"

I have 12 10 Gauge shotshells loaded up with it now. As soon as I make it out to the range to shoot them up I'll be able to tell you more. I'm expecting I won't be disappointed.

I put 50 shells through the Burgess, and it was literally like I shot smokeless all day. I was extremely impressed.

I started with APP when I got into a side lock. I used it to break in the barrel and get a lot of shooting time with a 54 sidelock. I had to keep my patch ultra clean from the cap to the breech but it worked. I agree about it being cleaner than real black powder and that the 2F granuals were big. My accuracy was not as good with it though. I ended up using it for making 45 Colt BP loads and was just fine for that use.

Have you noticed any differences in accuracy? When I was using it with the 54 I worked up a load with real Black Powder, and then searched around the same range with aPP and the real BP shot about 20% tighter groups.

I've noticed no difference in my accuracy. Ran a bunch through my Smith carbine and it was almost stacking holes at 50 yards if I did my part. My POA/POI changed a little, but the group size is perfectly good. For a muzzleloader, at least in my .45 underhammer it's much of the same.

 

[Archeryrob]

I loaded all the paper cartridges with it for the 44 with 21 grains, lubed wad and round ball on it. It does just fine and I like it being easier to clean and not having to clean it like black powder. They said shoots cleaner, but I can't tell the difference. If I don't oil my cylinder pin the cylinder will still bind up emptying the the second loading.

I have not tried it in the Accura yet and might. 777 is leaving crusty crude down by the packed powder area. I would like to see if APP is even easier to clean. I stopped using Pyrodex because of cleaning it up.

 

[The Saint]

I loaded all the paper cartridges with it for the 44 with 21 grains, lubed wad and round ball on it. It does just fine and I like it being easier to clean and not having to clean it like black powder. They said shoots cleaner, but I can't tell the difference. If I don't oil my cylinder pin the cylinder will still bind up emptying the the second loading.

I have not tried it in the Accura yet and might. 777 is leaving crusty crude down by the packed powder area. I would like to see if APP is even easier to clean. I stopped using Pyrodex because of cleaning it up.

Triple 7 and Pyrodex both use perchlorates as a base; which will produce that same flaky caked up crusty stuff you're talking about. The difference is Pyrodex also uses potassium nitrate (same as actual BP base) and perchlorate mix...where as Triple 7 is purely potassium perchlorate. That turns into a perchloride (nasty salts) when ignition happens, and = hard crusty sugar ring...and why if you forget to clean Pyro/T7 it's a death sentence to the gun, whereas actual black is more forgiving by comparison. APP uses ascorbic acid, basically Vitamin C, which not only should ignite easier, but will burn far cleaner...and should be less corrosive and more forgiving similar to actual BP.

 

[GunBum]

Black powder and black powder substitutes both need fuel and oxidizer and something to lower the ignition temperature (sulfur for most of them). Traditional black powder is roughly 75% potassium nitrate (oxidizer), 15% Charcoal (fuel), and 10% sulfur. In reality, there are 1000’s of black powder recipes that have been used over the last 1000 years, so take those ratios with a grain of salt. Most black powder substitutes change the oxidizer, fuel, or both.

The Oxidizers in Pyrodex and Triple 7 are both mixtures of potassium perchlorate and potassium nitrate. The actual ratios are trade secrets. If you don’t believe me, read the SDS for both of them. Pyrodex uses wood charcoal similar to traditional black powder. Triple 7 uses a sugar based fuel, and a few other additives. I’ve personally done the chemical analysis of both, so I can unequivocally state that their SDS is accurate, but missing a lot of proprietary information on “non hazardous” ingredients, and they really don’t want you to guess the perchlorate/nitrate ratio.

https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/2018-tripleseven-sds-new.pdf

https://hodgdon.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/08/2018-pyrodex-sds-new.pdf

According to the old SDS for APP, the ingredients are proprietary information. Since OSHA and the UN don’t play that game, the current SDS shows the oxidizers as, get ready for a shock, potassium nitrate and potassium perchlorate. I’ve never done chemical analysis of APP, but would like to. I’ll have to see what I can get away with at work.

https://www.brownells.com/userdocs/MSDS/749-014-779_AMERICAN%20PIONEER%20GOLD%20FFG%20POWDER,%201LB%20%20-%20A46_default.pdf

https://www.brownells.com/userdocs/MSDS/749-014-780_AMERICAN%20PIONEER%20JIM%20SHOCKEYS%20FFFG%20GOLD%20POWDER%201LB%20-%20A46_default.pdf

I’m going to hang my Chemist hood in the corner and call ******** on APP’s claims that they have something truly different. They may have a cleaner burning mix, but that’s it. It’ll still leave corrosive residue in your gun.

 

[The Saint]

No one is claiming it's non-corrosive, just the least corrosive of the bunch. And it's the cleanest by a fair bit. Ascorbic acid is what the president of the company himself told me.

 

[GunBum]

I‘m not disputing what someone said, just pointing out that their official declaration for emergency purposes says that it is mostly potassium perchlorate and potassium nitrate. Ascorbic acid in pyrotechnic compositions is typically used as a fuel, not an oxidizer, and fuels in most black powder like substances are not the dangerous part (as far as hazmat response goes). So he may be honest stating that it is vitamin C based.

If I had to guess on composition, he’s using a variation of “Golden Powder” which has been used in amateur pyrotechnics for decades. The lack of residue comes from the lack of sulfur.

Golden Powder

(Redirected from Crimson Powder)Jump to: navigation, searchGolden powder in general refers to a mixture consisting of potassium nitrate as an oxidizer and ascorbic acid as a fuel (also known as vitamin C). It finds it's main use in lifting charges. The heat of combustion is 5% higher and the gas...

pyrosource.fandom.com

Golden Powder

Name of composition: Golden PowderComposition Type: Lift powder/propellant with other possible usages as a black powder replacement.Creator: Do not remember.Color/Effect: The Composition: (by weight) Potassium Nitrate 60%Ascorbic Acid/Vitamin C 40% Any Precautions/Incompatabilities: None that I a...

www.amateurpyro.com

 

[The Saint]

Seems right to assume such, regardless...the stuff seems to work great in my experiences. I'll never switch back as long as I can order APP.

 

[tjiann]

Bought my first batch of APP 3F from you last week when I picked up that T/C Hawken 45 at your shop. Shot it at the range yesterday. I usually swab out after about 5 shots with Pyrodex. Was amazed at how little fouling there was with the APP. Never felt like it needed swabbing. Was kinda weird how large the granules are for 3F, but not an important issue I guess.

 

[The Saint]

Bought my first batch of APP 3F from you last week when I picked up that T/C Hawken 45 at your shop. Shot it at the range yesterday. I usually swab out after about 5 shots with Pyrodex. Was amazed at how little fouling there was with the APP. Never felt like it needed swabbing. Was kinda weird how large the granules are for 3F, but not an important issue I guess.

I put 27 rounds through my Smith carbine today (35gr 2F each shot) and the after-effect was, wait for it, TWO patches to "field clean" the gun at the range. Not just the bore, 2 patches to clean the entire gun...the majority being from musket cap blast radius...bore looked like I was using smokeless, in essence. Groups out to 200 yards, to boot...no reason to ever go back to dirtier stuff, IMO.

Yes, granules are big...and they are sometimes not easy to meter in a typical flask...but the powder simply works great and I don't care about granule size in the end, either.

 

[tjiann]

I put 27 rounds through my Smith carbine today (35gr 2F each shot) and the after-effect was, wait for it, TWO patches to "field clean" the gun at the range. Not just the bore, 2 patches to clean the entire gun...the majority being from musket cap blast radius...bore looked like I was using smokeless, in essence. Groups out to 200 yards, to boot...no reason to ever go back to dirtier stuff, IMO.

Yes, granules are big...and they are sometimes not easy to meter in a typical flask...but the powder simply works great and I don't care about granule size in the end, either.

Yeah, I'll be stopping in soon to pick up some APP in 2F for my larger caliber. Hey, by the way, if you ever get a T/C Seneca 36 cal in can you let me know?

 

[The Saint]

Yeah, I'll be stopping in soon to pick up some APP in 2F for my larger caliber. Hey, by the way, if you ever get a T/C Seneca 36 cal in can you let me know?

You just missed one last month that was MINT in the original box that moved in 2 days.

 

[tjiann]

I've done some more experimenting with APP vs. BP. I've been shooting 3 original civil war guns lately. Mostly BP because I've been making paper cartridges and trying to mimic historical accuracy. Anyway, today I took my 1861 Springfield and Burnside Carbine out to the range. I used primarily APP. I did a little experimentation with the 1861. To me, I need a load of 70 grains APP to match the feel of about 60 grains of BP (shooting 2F for both). At that charge, I get very similar results with the APP. I put around 50 rounds down range today with the 1861. When I got home I could not believe how little residue was in the gun. The normal process of plunging/flushing black water for several minutes then several patches wet and dry for another 20 minutes with BP was reduced to a fast flush (seconds) with just 3 patches to clean...a dry after the water/dawn flush, then a CLP wet patch, then one dry. Clean. I'm sold on APP. Doesn't mean I won't shoot BP sometimes for nostalgia reasons, but APP is great for fast cleanup after a range day. I should note similar results in the Burnside.

 

[The Saint]

I've done some more experimenting with APP vs. BP. I've been shooting 3 original civil war guns lately. Mostly BP because I've been making paper cartridges and trying to mimic historical accuracy. Anyway, today I took my 1861 Springfield and Burnside Carbine out to the range. I used primarily APP. I did a little experimentation with the 1861. To me, I need a load of 70 grains APP to match the feel of about 60 grains of BP (shooting 2F for both). At that charge, I get very similar results with the APP. I put around 50 rounds down range today with the 1861. When I got home I could not believe how little residue was in the gun. The normal process of plunging/flushing black water for several minutes then several patches wet and dry for another 20 minutes with BP was reduced to a fast flush (seconds) with just 3 patches to clean...a dry after the water/dawn flush, then a CLP wet patch, then one dry. Clean. I'm sold on APP. Doesn't mean I won't shoot BP sometimes for nostalgia reasons, but APP is great for fast cleanup after a range day. I should note similar results in the Burnside.

Welcome aboard haha! It's a clear cut game changer, for me. Same smoke and fire and all that good stuff...just 5X cleaner, a little cheaper, and no stupid $200/yr explosives license required for me to stock it. I honestly think it makes a better paper cartridge/cartridge powder because of the large granule size, too...removes the need for any fillers and doesn't require any special lubes or grease cookies.

 

[Ngrovcam]

Anyone have experience reloading APP in center fire stuff like 45-70 for use in original trapdoors, or in SAA’s? Seems like most of the discussion here was for loose or paper cartridges, aside from a shotgun application. From what very little I have read, outside of this thread, I guess the pressure profile is similar to BP and standard substitutes.
Thank you, all, for the interesting discussion - I had not heard of APP before this…don’t shoot my BP stuff anymore because they are all original, and I hate the clean-up for the effort, but also and mostly because of what the process puts them through…began shooting BP in ‘68 with NSSA, when lots of us still used original guns and leather, but never warmed up to the fake powders. Would love to break a few clays with the old ‘61 Springfield, again, but have a real pretty ‘79 trapdoor carbine that I have never fired and has been calling to me for at least 30 years, now.

 

[The Saint]

I use it for 45 Colt, 44-40, 45-70, 12GA, .38spl....so yea, plenty. It works cleaner than Trail Boss and Unique in some ways....barely any more cleanup and Trapdoor safe.

 

[Ngrovcam]

I use it for 45 Colt, 44-40, 45-70, 12GA, .38spl....so yea, plenty. It works cleaner than Trail Boss and Unique in some ways....barely any more cleanup and Trapdoor safe.

Thank you, sir!

 

[DAVIDMAGNUM]

I honestly don't get it.
I shoot in lever action silhouette matches. My main centerfire rifle and caliber is an 1873 Uberti in 44WCF. For the rifle caliber game out to 200 meters I use a 220gr 30-1 alloy bullet, DGL black powder lube ,CCI#300 primers and 37gr of Swiss 2F. For the pistol caliber match out to 100 meters I use the same bullet and primer but 27gr of Swiss 1.5F and a card wad. I have fired over 150 rounds in a day without cleaning or loss of accuracy. At the end of the day the bore looks like a fouling shot was fired.
Cleanup ? I put the rifle in a cradle upside down. A wet brush for a few strokes, a couple of dry patches and done. I Usually clean the rifle that day after a match. After 20 years of doing this the bore is pristine.
The brass is a little more work, a little. The brass goes in a mayonnaise jar and gets filled with "moose milk"*. The nest day I rinse with hot water and lay out to dry. Then it is treated like any other brass case.
Easy, fun, accurate and powerful.

*moose milk is about one finger of Ballistol and then water filling a gallon jug.