Hey y'all conservative MDShooters...

[novus collectus]

I have a request for you guys that I believe is in the best interest of our cause.
Please tone down the liberal bashing comments a little because there are a few of us libs here and since Maryland has a number of moderate liberal gun owners and some far left liberal gun owners that care about our gun rights read this board, it would be prudent not to chase them away with the bashing or derogatory comments.

Now I know from reading this board and DD214's research that democrats in congress vote for anti gun legislation in an overwhelmingly majority, and the opposite is true with the Republican congresspersons (see, I'm a liberal and so I used the PC term for Congressperson ), and the Maryland democrats have a similar theme. But if that is to change then us progun liberals (some say progressives) and democrats will have to change that ourselves from the inside of our party. Chasing the new ones of us away from this board with liberal bashing is counter to our efforts.

Now me, I don't care too much when I see y'all righties bash us libs and I think it humourous at times because you conservatives just have no clue about most social causes (I believe that is called conservative bashing ), but I cringe whenever I realize a lurking progun liberal is probably reading it too and decides not to join a site where he/she thinks he will be dumped on or bashed for his non-gun politics.

So welcome us libs with open arms and tone down the rhetoric if you could. I am not saying to stop being critical of us dems and libs and by all means don't stop because if it were not for some of you guys taking me to task on my own party and if it were not for DD214 providing a dem/repub Congresspersons of pro/anti gun voting records, I would never have an idea of just how bad my party is on gun rights right now.

Ok, rant over.

 

[Norton]

Hey Novus....

 

[Norton]

I'll take it a step further and say that there are darned few folks on either side of the aisle that represent the people of this country. It's quickly becoming a case of the government vs. the people and the end result is always the same....tyranny.

There's an Ayn Rand quote somewhere within The Fountainhead that basically says that you can pick which road you want, but ultimately they lead to the same destination.

I don't have time or the energy to get wrapped up in too many more issues, because I figure as long as the 2nd amendment is intact, that leaves more options for the other rights to maintained.

 

[Spot77]

Novus - you're the PERFECT gun owner to work with people like Senator Raskin. He's shown that he's willing to listen to our (pro gun) arguments and he's asked another user here if any gunowners would be willing to stand up for liberal issues important to his constituents.

I'd certainly be willing to.......

 

[novus collectus]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wos-dDxpJlQ

 

[ChannelCat]

Novus,

I find it refreshing to hear and meet liberals/progressives who are pro Second Amendment. This shows not only true tolerance in the literal meaning of the word, but true respect for civil liberties. Unlike the ACLU who buys into the mythology of the collective rights theory (it’s right on their web page), you obviously view the Bill of Rights as a package deal, and do not treat it on an a la carte basis. I respect your courage for standing up for your views.

The trap that many liberals and Democrats fall into (and Republicans for that matter), is that they buy into the entire party line hook line and sinker without any critical analysis of individual issues and planks. For example, one of my best friends is one such gentleman. This guy would literally take a bullet for me, but we’ve gotten to the point where we are unable to discuss politics. What typically happens, is that a debate digresses to condescending remarks and personal attacks on his part, which digresses further into a full-blown shouting match.

The weird thing is, my friend has a nice collection of handguns and shotguns, knows firearms upside and down, is not only a good shot with handguns and rifles, but is the best winged bird shooter I’ve ever seen; yet he has serious set of blinders on in that he is one of those who tows the party line (including the gun rights issue). He is in favor of gun control partly because be believes the mythology that there is no incramentalisn, and that there will never be any outright bans. He also buys into the collective rights myth. Here’s the kicker: he actually buys into Howard Dean’s marketing campaign about the Democrats being born-again Second Amenders.

This all came to a head last summer one evening on the Potomac while we were fishing for channel and blue catfish (hence, my handle). My friend not only tried to pass off the whole Howard Dean-spawned pack of lies on me, he accused me of buying into “lies perpetuated by the NRA”. Funny, the NRA must have some great computer hackers to be able to hack into various government web site to change data on who votes for and sponsors the unending parade of gun bans and restrictions. I took this as a HUGE insult to my intelligence , and to make a long story short, we not only almost swamped the canoe, we almost got into a duke out. Suffice it to say, whenever he brings up politics (which is not very often these days), I quickly change the subject because I value his friendship too much (and have told him so).

Enough of my rant. Back to you Novus. You, the dude who runs Pro Gun Progressive, and all other heat-packing liberals are more than welcome under our big tent. Again Novus, I admire your courage to stand up for principals. Keep on fighting the good fight!!

 

[novus collectus]

Novus - you're the PERFECT gun owner to work with people like Senator Raskin. He's shown that he's willing to listen to our (pro gun) arguments and he's asked another user here if any gunowners would be willing to stand up for liberal issues important to his constituents.

I'd certainly be willing to.......

As long as I am not asked to support the rampant illegal immigration, I'm all left liberal.
My stance on legalizing/decriminalizing drugs and prostitution might be a little too radical though, but my other stances like using our prison system to reform instead of wharehouse criminals and increasing social services would probably be right up ther with the mainstream left ideology.

Tell me more about this Raskin. Which district is he again?

 

[novus collectus]

Novus,

I find it refreshing to hear and meet liberals/progressives who are pro Second Amendment. This shows not only true tolerance in the literal meaning of the word, but true respect for civil liberties. Unlike the ACLU who buys into the mythology of the collective rights theory (it’s right on their web page), you obviously view the Bill of Rights as a package deal, and do not treat it on an a la carte basis. I respect your courage for standing up for your views.

Than you. By the way, the ACLU's unwillingness to address the 2nd A issue is my only major sticking point with them. The rest about them appeals to me and I might even become a member of the ACLU someday (me being a liberal and all).

The trap that many liberals and Democrats fall into (and Republicans for that matter), is that they buy into the entire party line hook line and sinker without any critical analysis of individual issues and planks. For example, one of my best friends is one such gentleman. This guy would literally take a bullet for me, but we’ve gotten to the point where we are unable to discuss politics. What typically happens, is that a debate digresses to condescending remarks and personal attacks on his part, which digresses further into a full-blown shouting match.

The weird thing is, my friend has a nice collection of handguns and shotguns, knows firearms upside and down, is not only a good shot with handguns and rifles, but is the best winged bird shooter I’ve ever seen; yet he has serious set of blinders on in that he is one of those who tows the party line (including the gun rights issue). He is in favor of gun control partly because be believes the mythology that there is no incramentalisn, and that there will never be any outright bans. He also buys into the collective rights myth. Here’s the kicker: he actually buys into Howard Dean’s marketing campaign about the Democrats being born-again Second Amenders.

This all came to a head last summer one evening on the Potomac while we were fishing for channel and blue catfish (hence, my handle). My friend not only tried to pass off the whole Howard Dean-spawned pack of lies on me, he accused me of buying into “lies perpetuated by the NRA”. Funny, the NRA must have some great computer hackers to be able to hack into various government web site to change data on who votes for and sponsors the unending parade of gun bans and restrictions. I took this as a HUGE insult to my intelligence , and to make a long story short, we not only almost swamped the canoe, we almost got into a duke out. Suffice it to say, whenever he brings up politics (which is not very often these days), I quickly change the subject because I value his friendship too much (and have told him so).

I have a friend who is similar, except he is the conservative who is fooled by the phrase "reasonable gun control laws"
He did come with me to the House hearing last year dealing with shall issue and the AW ban though.

I wish Howard Dean was president all those years ago. Dean is telling a little truth (with a lot of exageration) about more democrats being pro gun rights, or gun-rights-lukewarm because is used to be a taboo for a Dem to be pro gun and not tow the "reasonable gun control laws" line, but now there are a few more of them in Congress.........a looooong way yet to go though.

Also Howard Dean is only pro 2nd as far as the federal governemnt goes. I have gathered from his interviews during and after his presidential campaign that he is a state's rights guy and that is a mixed blessing of sorts because although he would not have supported a federal ban on guns, he would have supported the states banning whatever they wanted to. Of course it works both ways and he would have supported a state that adopted no restrictions too.

Enough of my rant. Back to you Novus. You, the dude who runs Pro Gun Progressive,

No, that would be Sebastion. He has an account on MDShooters too. He's not a liberal, but a "progressive"

 

[Norton]

As long as I am not asked to support the rampant illegal immigration, I'm all left liberal.
My stance on legalizing/decriminalizing drugs and prostitution might be a little too radical though, but my other stances like using our prison system to reform instead of wharehouse criminals and increasing social services would probably be right up ther with the mainstream left ideology.

Tell me more about this Raskin. Which district is he again?

See, those really aren't anathema to most gun owners' basic tenets of the world.....even the so-called conservative ones. I don't think that you would find too many people that would argue with you on those specific issues.

I could really give a darn about the drug and prostitution issue.....if someone wants to fry their receptors more power to 'em. Besides, most of the violent crime that we are facing is directly related to the illegal drug market. Take the profits out of it and you would see a lessening of the crimes related to it.

Where I think that most conservatives and liberals come to blows is over redistribution of wealth, private property rights (and this one is a fault of boths sides), and illegal immigration. You've already said that you oppose illegal immigration so you're probably not as far left as ya' think

 

[novus collectus]

Where I think that most conservatives and liberals come to blows is over redistribution of wealth, private property rights (and this one is a fault of boths sides), and illegal immigration. You've already said that you oppose illegal immigration so you're probably not as far left as ya' think

See, this is another issue that is based more on my liberal stance than anything else, but it just has a result that is similar to the conservative results.
I am pro gun rights for all because I am for all of the Bill of Rights. Even if the BoR is found not to apply to the People, there is still a human right to be allowed to defend oneself. I feel this is my civil libertarian side (which is where many Libertariands and some liberals cross over).
I am against illegal immigration because it hurts the American working man/woman, often leads to abuse of immigrants and only truly benefits the greedy rich. I see fighting illegal immigration as a necessity to protect the down trodden. The best and most effective way to do so is to enforce the law fining the employers. Catching them all and then sending them back is not too feasible, but there is no good reason to let so many of them stay here even after we caught them (with the exception that they have a rightful access to our court system too and they have a right to challenge the legality of deportation, but that can be addressed by streamlining the process).
I am totally aganst NAFTA now, but I am all for lessenning trade restrictions with Mexico alone as long as we make them pay a better wage to their workers in exchange for our business. If their workers are paid better, then they would have less reason to come here. If they have more money, they may buy our products and services which will benefit the American worker....

...Sorry, I got carried away

 

[RobMoore]

Lets all jump ship and join the constitution party.

 

[ChannelCat]

No, that would be Sebastion. He has an account on MDShooters too. He's not a liberal, but a "progressive"

Bad use of the language on my part. Novus, I knew that you wern't the Pro Gun Progressive guy. I just couldn't remember Sebastion's name. What I should have written was "...you, and the Pro Gun Progressive guy...."

English is such a funny language

 

[ChannelCat]

Than you. By the way, the ACLU's unwillingness to address the 2nd A issue is my only major sticking point with them. The rest about them appeals to me and I might even become a member of the ACLU someday (me being a liberal and all).

I will more than likely join the ACLU if they ever embrace the entire Bill of Rights. In my never to be humbled opinion, the ACLU is a little too compulsive-obsessive with the Boy Scouts and with racial quotas. I will ignore all that and join up at such time that they quit treating the Bill of Rights on an a la carte basis.

As a Libertarian, I admire much of the ACLU’s work, including standing up to the so-called “Patriot Act” which allows Fourth Amendment violations that are as illegal in my opinion as SB-43. Having said that, as it stands now, the ACLU is part of the problem, and not part of the solution.

 

[TheTruth]

Without sounding disrespectful to the original poster, I disagree to an extent with your premise, however I do think we should be courteous to any and all second amendment supporters.

Novus - If you don't want others to "liberal bash" then don't bring up gay rights, legalizing drugs, the environment and legalizing prostitution or other political topics. You seem to be the one always bringing it up and like to announce the fact that you are a liberal, like it is a badge of honor. This forum is about sharing, learning and defending our rights as gun owners. If we all keep on topic, then we won't have any problems. While I would never begrudge your right to vote or support whomever you want, but in all honesty - what does it matter? We both are on the same team when it comes to our guns.

 

[Norton]

Lets all jump ship and join the constitution party.

The Constitution Party in MD is disbanding......

 

[novus collectus]

Without sounding disrespectful to the original poster, I disagree to an extent with your premise, however I do think we should be courteous to any and all second amendment supporters.

Novus - If you don't want others to "liberal bash" then don't bring up gay rights, legalizing drugs, the environment and legalizing prostitution or other political topics. You seem to be the one always bringing it up and like to announce the fact that you are a liberal, like it is a badge of honor. This forum is about sharing, learning and defending our rights as gun owners. If we all keep on topic, then we won't have any problems. While I would never begrudge your right to vote or support whomever you want, but in all honesty - what does it matter? We both are on the same team when it comes to our guns.

I agree we should stay on topic, but there is still the Water Cooler forum and some of the old posts of mine you may have read were back in the day when the forum was getting started and DD214 was still juggling forums and such.
There has been more than a few threads on political issues not pertaining to gun rights started by other posters and even in some threads many of us old timer MDShooter members have been guilty of going slightly off topic in an important thread on occasion (yes Don, I am talking about you too ).

Like I said in my first post, I don't take the attacks on liberals in general personally and I love a good debate on politics, so I did not start this thread for my sensibilities. I started it for other progun rights liberals that may be interested, but may be turned off by the anti liberal atmosphere the language used may imply.

On important threads for our organizing I have refrained and tried to restrict my desire to get into a debate on a social issue or two because I did not want to derail a thread off topic, so I started this thread instead because it reminded me that we are all in this together and there are threads and forums on MDShooters for stuff like that which won't distract the effort that I can get into a debate on in better.

Oh, and yes I wear my liberalism as a badge of honor, I am all for gay marriage rights in the state of Maryland, but I am for the gun rights cause so much that I would even vote for the anti gay kook Dwyer because of his pro-gunrights stance. So we are definitly on the same team when it comes to gun rights.

 

[K31]

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend."

 

[DD214]

Novus, you have been around since day one, and you have earned my respect as both a human being and a fighter for 2A rights. But you have to realize that all of our heartache is almost single handedly caused by liberals. You and the other liberals here are in an uncomfortable position because it is your ideological brethren that want to disarm you and put your life and liberty at risk. Unfortunately, I think you now want us put blinders on and pretend that the people causing our pain are faceless bureaucrats without a political identity. The fact is they do have an identity, and it is almost always liberal democrats that wish to do us harm. I don't want this forum to start practicing revisionist history by pretending that both sides of the political spectrum are equally guilty, because by and large they are not.

I think that most of the recent "liberal bashing" is just a case of calling a spade a spade. And if anyone makes a point of being a liberal on a largely conservative forum, well, I think the saying is "if you wear a clown suit, people are going to laugh". I don't want to see anyone alienated, but I also don't want people to lose sight of who the enemy really is.

As for myself, for as much "liberal bashing" as I have done, I have been very, very, very restrained. I am pretty much completely, 100%, across the board opposed to everything that liberals stand for. I am not a single issue voter and sometimes my frustration with other issues will spill over onto this board, as we are fighting the very same people that cause most of the political and social grief in my life.

The last thing is that I guess from having spent 7 years in the military having everything from my Mom to my manhood attacked on a daily basis, I have very little sympathy for people who can't take ribbing. Especially on this board where very little personal attacks actually take place. I think we have done very well, and I can't think of a single flame war having taken place since this forum's inception. I think you and I came close in the beginning, but it all worked out in the end.

It is a good thing to have liberals on our side in the 2A debate, as they have 'street cred' with the liberals in power. Please continue to fight with us, but don't forget that it is your people who we are fighting, and if frustrations boil over on occasion, suck it up soldier! Such is life.



-Don

 

[novus collectus]

Don, did you read my first post?

I said I was not offended and I was just concerned the excessive liberal knocking might scare off new progun liberals is all.
I also said that you guys should never stop being critical of libs and dems because I recognise our liberal politicians are the problem.
I also said you are basically the one to point this out to me and changed my perspective towards my own party on the gun issue.
I don't need to suck it up when you guys say stuff about liberals because you cons actually amuse me when y'all say some of your stuff about us when it is not relating to gun issues.

I'm not asking for you guys to censor yourselfs or to sanitise your posts. I guess all I am asking for is to be a little more aware of what you say about liberals in general on the forums like this one or National issues when trying to organize for hearings and such.
Maybe you guys could be more specific like calling them Feinstien liberals, or Peloski liberals, or Kennedy liberals, or Guilianni liberals or something.

And by the way, I can understand why you had your manhood questioned while in the military. That is what you get when you have those little umbrellas in your drinks


By the way, I agree I have never seen a flame war here either and I would be surprised if I ever did.

 

[Norton]

By the way, I agree I have never seen a flame war here either and I would be surprised if I ever did.

Proabably because we all actually pretty much know everyone here for the time being. It's a lot easier to be a jerk to someone when it is under the guise of anonymity.