CMP 1911s update

[Abulg1972]

I'm getting more upset every time I get one of the stupid emails from the CMP. The CMP is basically screwing over FFL-03 holders by refusing to sell 1911's directly to them. This is going to make it even more difficult to convince other FFL dealers to sell C&R pistols directly to FFL-03 holders.

Mark Johnson isn't doing us any favors by denying the lawful transfer of these pistols directly to FFL-03 holders. This is one more cut into our 2A rights.

I just delete every email I get without reading it. I’ve gotten the Garands and HXP I wanted.

 

[somd_mustangs]

So, how do you value a pistol that has never been on the market? How do you set the prices? Every pistol will hold differing values depending on the manufacturer, date of manufacture and condition of pistol. Way too many variables for these handguns.

A Singer is going to be worth more than an everyday Colt. Will they then price each handgun with an appropriate street value?

I see this as a complete Urkel.

I see your point, and the only way to resolve that would be to auction each pistol separately for $1 start and let the market sort itself out, but that would be a fuster-cluck. Otherwise they'll just have to sort them into general categories like they did with the Garands, and some people will get a good deal and some may be disappointed. Maybe have to set price using the lowest condition pistol in the category ?

I'm sure they'll do the best they can to make it work but ...

 

[mawkie]

Here's the rub. It's one thing if you're disappointed with a Garand when the CMP sold 'em for $350-750 depending on grade. When you're laying out over twice that for a 1911 it's a much bigger gamble that'll really hurt if it's not what you expected. At least on the open market you'll have a better chance of getting just the grade you want with no ugly surprises. I'm just a kibitzer in this one, curious as to how it'll all shake out in the end.

 

[Orlando]

Can't say I disagree with you. What's the point of having an 03 if organizations like the CMP do this.

You guys need to get your facts right................
CMP is not the one mandating pistols going to Type I FFL
The Defense Authorization bill requires it. If you arent happy whine at Congress, dont blame CMP
Another option is if you dont like the regulations dont buy from them. I think everyone should be very thankful that these are even being turned over to CMP. They could have all have gone and been shredded, destroyed
Some people arent going to be happy no matter what

 

[j_h_smith]

Here's the rub. It's one thing if you're disappointed with a Garand when the CMP sold 'em for $350-750 depending on grade. When you're laying out over twice that for a 1911 it's a much bigger gamble that'll really hurt if it's not what you expected. At least on the open market you'll have a better chance of getting just the grade you want with no ugly surprises. I'm just a kibitzer in this one, curious as to how it'll all shake out in the end.

Not to mention that fact that with the flood of these pistols into the marketplace, it has to affect the overall value of these pistols. I don't know how many they will sell, but it's going to flood the market and it has to adversely affect the value of those pistols already out there.

 

[Furious George]

Can't say I disagree with you. What's the point of having an 03 if organizations like the CMP do this.

It makes it easier to resell the CMP 1911 after you receive it.

 

[somd_mustangs]

Can't say I disagree with you. What's the point of having an 03 if organizations like the CMP do this.

It makes it easier to resell the CMP 1911 after you receive it.

How so?

 

[ironpony]

What is considered a "marksmanship activity" ?

 

[j_h_smith]

What is considered a "marksmanship activity" ?

For the Garand, it used to be a Garand Clinic among other activities. I don't know what will qualify for the 1911 program.

 

[Melnic]

What is considered a "marksmanship activity" ?

If you are talking about the CMP qualifications to purchase something like the 1911, the C&R FFL03 if you have one will suffice.

 

[ironpony]

If you are talking about the CMP qualifications to purchase something like the 1911, the C&R FFL03 if you have one will suffice.

Great, thanks. That was my toughest hoop, now to find an ffl that will give me a signed copy of their license.

 

[Matlack]

If you are talking about the CMP qualifications to purchase something like the 1911, the C&R FFL03 if you have one will suffice.

We dont actually know that yet. They have said its all new and we have to wait for the new website and packets to order. Considering the crap they are putting out already without really flushing things out, they could do anything.

 

[John from MD]

This is BS. The CMP is rolling over and becoming politically correct. Back in the sixties, we bought 1911's and 1903's and had them shipped directly to me. Collectors having an 03 FFL BY LAW are allowed to purchase and receive firearms through interstate commerce. Their position on the current crop of 1911's has made me decide to drop my support for the organization.

 

[j_h_smith]

If you are talking about the CMP qualifications to purchase something like the 1911, the C&R FFL03 if you have one will suffice.

I don't know if we can say that yet. Since these are not going to qualify as a 03 weapon, I don't know if the license will suffice. It would seem that nothing associated with the regular CMP M1 Garand/Carbine program is going to be used for this, I don't know what a buyer will need.

 

[j_h_smith]

This is BS. The CMP is rolling over and becoming politically correct. Back in the sixties, we bought 1911's and 1903's and had them shipped directly to me. Collectors having an 03 FFL BY LAW are allowed to purchase and receive firearms through interstate commerce. Their position on the current crop of 1911's has made me decide to drop my support for the organization.

Playing the devil's advocate for a moment, maybe this isn't a SMP issue, but more a US Army problem. It would seem that I've read that the Army is wanting this program to be completely different than the Garand program. I think the CMP is just facilitating the Army's demands.

 

[Abulg1972]

You guys need to get your facts right................
CMP is not the one mandating pistols going to Type I FFL
The Defense Authorization bill requires it. If you arent happy whine at Congress, dont blame CMP
Another option is if you dont like the regulations dont buy from them. I think everyone should be very thankful that these are even being turned over to CMP. They could have all have gone and been shredded, destroyed
Some people arent going to be happy no matter what

I would appreciate it if you would identify for us the specific provision(s) of the Act that requires the CMP to ship all pistols to an 01 FFL for transfer to the purchaser, because I cannot find it and believe that it does not exist.

The relevant provisions are found in Section 1091 of the Act, and it contains no express requirement that pistols be shipped only to an 01 FFL. Section 1091(a)(4), Terms of Transfer, states that "Subsections (b), (c), (d), (e), and (g) of Section 40728 shall apply to a transfer in the same manner such subsections apply to transfers of firearms under such section." Section 1091(a)(5), Other Requirements, provides that "Except as provided in subsection (b)(1), subchapter II of chapter 407 of title 36, United States Code, shall apply with respect to firearms transferred under this section." Here is a breakdown of each of these provisions.

Section 1091:

Subsection (b) deals with timing of transfers from the Secretary of the Army to the CMP.

Subsection (c) deals with the vesting of title to the firearms in the CMP.

Subsection (d) addresses how the CMP is to store firearms.

Subsection (e) deals with the transfer of parts.

Subsection (g) deals with the cost of transfers.

Subchapter II of chapter 407 of title 36:

The only provisions of the referenced subchapter that are applicable to CMP transfers and that address FFLs and background checks are found in 36 U.S.C. Section 40732. Section 40732(b)(2) provides that all sales by the CMP shall be subject to applicable federal, state and local laws, and that the CMP "shall establish procedures to obtain a criminal records check of the individual with the United States Government and State law enforcement agencies."

As most forum members know, the Gun Control Act of 1968 permits an 03 FFL who resides in one state to receive a curio or relic handgun at his/her licensed premises from a seller in another state, subject only to the requirements imposed by the laws of the states in which the buyer and the seller reside. As most forum members also know, the GCA does not require the seller to perform (or have performed) a NICS check on the 03 FFL buyer. Thus, whether a seller must perform a NICS check is governed exclusively by state law. The laws of most state do not require the 03 FFL to undergo a NICS check.

As noted above, however, sales by the CMP are different, in that the law requires the CMP to perform a NICS check on the purchaser regardless of whether the purchaser holds an FFL.

So, the bottom line is that nothing in the Act requires the CMP to ship a M1911/M1911A1 only to an 01 FFL. As such, nothing prohibits the CMP from shipping a pistol directly to an 03 FFL as long as the CMP conducts its own NICS check, which it already does. In fact the CMP's own sales correspondence states that the 01 FFL requirement is being imposed because it would make the BATFE and the Army feel good.

What am I missing?

 

[Abulg1972]

I don't know if we can say that yet. Since these are not going to qualify as a 03 weapon, I don't know if the license will suffice. It would seem that nothing associated with the regular CMP M1 Garand/Carbine program is going to be used for this, I don't know what a buyer will need.

These pistols are most certainly curio or relic firearms. This isn't an issue of their classification. It's an issue of the policy adopted by the CMP.

 

[somd_mustangs]

Just view it as no different than an FFL-01 refusing to send a C&R pistol to an FFL-03.
You can argue facts and law til you're blue in the face, to no avail.

It's really not worth agonizing over or getting upset about.

 

[j_h_smith]

These pistols are most certainly curio or relic firearms. This isn't an issue of their classification. It's an issue of the policy adopted by the CMP.

No, if the CMP is facilitating the transfer of these handguns for the US Army and the US ARMY is putting these restrictions in place, then it's not the CMP setting the rules. They are just facilitating the wishes of the US Army.

Since there is no actual act that covers these handguns, they (US Army) can make the rules as they wish.

They are just acting like an agent for the US Army and will follow the rules set forth by the US Army.

The fact that the paperwork we all have on file with the CMP is no good for this sale, is indicative of the CMP not being in charge. Only act like the wholesaler for the manufacturer if you will.

 

[Abulg1972]

No, if the CMP is facilitating the transfer of these handguns for the US Army and the US ARMY is putting these restrictions in place, then it's not the CMP setting the rules. They are just facilitating the wishes of the US Army.

Since there is no actual act that covers these handguns, they (US Army) can make the rules as they wish.

They are just acting like an agent for the US Army and will follow the rules set forth by the US Army.

The fact that the paperwork we all have on file with the CMP is no good for this sale, is indicative of the CMP not being in charge. Only act like the wholesaler for the manufacturer if you will.

Maybe I'm missing something else, but I don't see any provision in the Act or Title 36 that gives the Secretary any discretion to dictate how the CMP sells firearms that it receives and thereupon become its property.

These ARE C or R firearms. Whether the CMP wants to recognize an 03 FFL when selling them is a different matter.