Is it LEGAL???

[JohnnyE]

This isn't an interesting thread.

I have bought a (now banned AR SIG m400 and a Arsenal AK) before the ban.

I do not know if I have the paperwork for these rifles. How would I prove that they were purchased before the ban?

If you're being charged with a crime, the burden of proof is on the state to provide actual EVIDENCE of guilt. For instance, if the state shows manufacturers' serial number records indicating that rifle's was made after the FSA went into effect, you have a problem. If the state produces a 4473 or bill of sale showing you bought it after the FSA went into effect, same thing...you have a problem.

Absent real evidence provided by the state that you broke the law, the state hasn't met its burden of proof. It is insufficient for the state to say "we think you bought that rifle after FSA went into effect, prove your innocence." That does not satisfy their burden of proof. The lack of evidence of innocence is not evidence of guilt.

 

[dwsjr]

Nope

 

[Mark75H]

If you're being charged with a crime, the burden of proof is on the state to provide actual EVIDENCE of guilt. For instance, if the state shows manufacturers' serial number records indicating that rifle's was made after the FSA went into effect, you have a problem. If the state produces a 4473 or bill of sale showing you bought it after the FSA went into effect, same thing...you have a problem.

Absent real evidence provided by the state that you broke the law, the state hasn't met its burden of proof. It is insufficient for the state to say "we think you bought that rifle after FSA went into effect, prove your innocence." That does not satisfy their burden of proof. The lack of evidence of innocence is not evidence of guilt.

You are going to need a very good lawyer

 

[EliteContent]

You are going to need a very good lawyer

Not that I take these guns out of the safe to shoot (it has been over a few years), but now I am afraid to take these guns out of my house.

These guns are legit. I bought them in lieu of sb281.

 

[sxs]

While the burden of proof may be legally on the state, who amongst us has deep enough pockets to want to fight it out especially since you could lose the right to own any firearm. The point being, if you can PROVE pre FSA ownership, no one can prosecute you. Essentially that is what is actually meant by the statement "the burden of proof is on you".

 

[sxs]

Not that I take these guns out of the safe to shoot (it has been over a few years), but now I am afraid to take these guns out of my house.

These guns are legit. I bought them in lieu of sb281.

Did you live in Maryland when you purchased the firearm? If so, it was regulated and the MDSP has a record. If not, there should be a record somewhere that the firearm existed (was manufatured) prior to Oct, 2013...even if just by serialization. Also, can you go back to the seller and ask for an invoice reflecting the original purchase date. A dealer can verify your purchase date either by invoice records or a search of their 4473s as long as you can give them a relatively narrow time frame (most smaller shops will need to do a manual search. Larger stores may be computerized, but either should have record of sale/transfer of that firearm with that particular SN sold to you.). I have actually did searches for a couple people whose firearms whete apparently stolen...but they didn't have the S/N recorded anywhere. They needed the S/N to give to the police. I have also provided photocopies of pre 2017 Md 77R paperwork to a couple past customers (in 2017, no more actual paper...but you can access you purchases online).

 

[EliteContent]

Did you live in Maryland when you purchased the firearm? If so, it was regulated and the MDSP has a record. If not, there should be a record somewhere that the firearm existed (was manufatured) prior to Oct, 2013...even if just by serialization. Also, can you go back to the seller and ask for an invoice reflecting the original purchase date. A dealer can verify your purchase date either by invoice records or a search of their 4473s as long as you can give them a relatively narrow time frame (most smaller shops will need to do a manual search. Larger stores may be computerized, but either should have record of sale/transfer of that firearm with that particular SN sold to you.). I have actually did searches for a couple people whose firearms whete apparently stolen...but they didn't have the S/N recorded anywhere. They needed the S/N to give to the police. I have also provided photocopies of pre 2017 Md 77R paperwork to a couple past customers (in 2017, no more actual paper...but you can access you purchases online).

You, I bought them both at engage... and good deal!!

I feel better.

Thanks SXS!

 

[Recon_D0c]

Does anyone have a picture of "HBAR" stamped on their barrel

 

[JohnnyE]

Nope

Please explain.

You are going to need a very good lawyer

I am.

While the burden of proof may be legally on the state, who amongst us has deep enough pockets to want to fight it out especially since you could lose the right to own any firearm. The point being, if you can PROVE pre FSA ownership, no one can prosecute you. Essentially that is what is actually meant by the statement "the burden of proof is on you".

Yes, clearly if you have evidence that you bought a now banned arm before the FSA took effect, put it out there and short circuit the prosecution. Don't wait. I'm not made of money either, and don't want to take a turn on the justice roulette wheel.

OTOH, if you brought the rifle into MD with you when you move here in 1971 and you have no bill of sale or other evidence of the purchase, and there is no documentation in Annapolis for the prosecutor to look up, you're not SOL. If the state offers only naked allegations, and no evidence of a post 9/30/13 sale, (e.g., a credible witness seeing you buy it recently, a bill of sale after 9/30/13 to another person for a rifle bearing that serial number, etc.), your defense attorney should moves to dismiss.

 

[sxs]

You, I bought them both at engage... and good deal!!

I feel better.

Thanks SXS!

Glad I could help!

 

[sxs]

Does anyone have a picture of "HBAR" stamped on their barrel

You will primarily only encounter HBAR on Colt rifles. Facing potential legal ramifications, this has been interpreted to indicate Heavy Barrel. Therefore, if HBAR or heavy is stamped on the firearm, or if the term Heavy or HBAR are used in advertising or firearm specs it has been determined you are GTG...despite the exact letter of the law.

 

[Magnumite]

RRA and Bushmaster also stamps HBAR on the barrel along with others. Of course, Bushmaster can't be sold in Maryland now.

 

[lazarus]

Anyone know if you can you inherit a banned firearm purchased after 2013 owned by a parent out of state . As in your parent living out of state purchases rifle in West Virginia in 2014 passes away in 2017. Can you inherit that firearm if you live in MD ? Or can you only inherent a firearm that was owned in the state before 2013 ?

That would fall distinctly in to get a Maryland state AG opinion and/or hire a probate lawyer who practices in Maryland and specializes in gun/firearm laws/probate.

Odds are good the answer is NO, you could not inherit it and bring it in to the state. On the other hand if you are inheriting it, you may not know when it was purchased. My 2 cents would be contact MSP and ask and provide serials for anything you aren't sure if it predates 2013.

If your parent/grand parent couldn't bring it in when alive, why should you be able to after their death?

Hopefully this shit will eventually get thrown out by SCOTUS. I'd rather that than MD Leg sanity. Set a precedent that this crap is unconstitutional n

 

[lazarus]

Please explain.


I am.



Yes, clearly if you have evidence that you bought a now banned arm before the FSA took effect, put it out there and short circuit the prosecution. Don't wait. I'm not made of money either, and don't want to take a turn on the justice roulette wheel.

OTOH, if you brought the rifle into MD with you when you move here in 1971 and you have no bill of sale or other evidence of the purchase, and there is no documentation in Annapolis for the prosecutor to look up, you're not SOL. If the state offers only naked allegations, and no evidence of a post 9/30/13 sale, (e.g., a credible witness seeing you buy it recently, a bill of sale after 9/30/13 to another person for a rifle bearing that serial number, etc.), your defense attorney should moves to dismiss.

I am going out on a limb here and saying MD AG could pretty quickly get daye of manufacture and the chain of FFL custody by calling the ATF who'd contact the manufacturer and then track down through FFLs.

Yeah, sure if it went manufacturer to FFL to private party and changed hands several times from private parties they might never be able to track it. On the other hand if you purchased from an FFL, they'll probably be able to track when you bought it eventually. Also even if we are talking private sales several times before it ended up in your hands, odds aren't terrible they'd still track when you purchased it and from whom.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

 

[Vile Shadow]

so to be clear, in MD, there is no registration for AR-15's, because they are outright outlawed/banned.

an HBAR AR-15 is a cash and carry gun. no registration required. Is there a LEGAL specification to a HBAR, or it the tax stamp simply says HBAR, its good?

Basically as long as it ain't necked down under the handguard, or on the naughty list specifically like Bushies, it's good.

 

[yakfish]

Buy a spare HBAR upper and swap it in when you move here. Problem solved. It's now MD compliant

 

[Parallax-Free]

Precision Firearms makes very nice fluted HBAR barrels. They are pricey, but if you're going to invest, why not go for broke?

 

[5.56blaster]

Stay in, do 20 or more years and never come back to this commie state. Stay safe!

 

[JohnnyE]

I am going out on a limb here and saying MD AG could pretty quickly get daye of manufacture and the chain of FFL custody by calling the ATF who'd contact the manufacturer and then track down through FFLs.

Yeah, sure if it went manufacturer to FFL to private party and changed hands several times from private parties they might never be able to track it. On the other hand if you purchased from an FFL, they'll probably be able to track when you bought it eventually. Also even if we are talking private sales several times before it ended up in your hands, odds aren't terrible they'd still track when you purchased it and from whom.

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.

Agree. I don't see any disagreement between us.

If the state does its work and traces the date of manufacturer and chain of ownership for a gun owned by the defendant, I see at least five (there may be more) potential outcomes:

1. Gun made before 10/1/13 and records show the defendant took ownership before 10/1/13 and there is no evidence of transfers after 9/30/13, the state has no case;

2. Gun made before 10/1/13 and from the date of manufacturer the chain of transfer evidence goes dark anytime before 10/1/13, and there is no evidence of transfers involving anyone after 9/30/13 up through the date the state came after the defendant, the state has no evidence the defendant got it after 9/30/13, and the evidence hasn't proven the defendant couldn't have owned it before 10/1/13, so the state has no case;

3. Gun made before 10/1/13 and from the date of manufacturer through 9/30/13 the chain of transfer evidence can be broken or complete, and there is evidence of a transfer (witness, sting operation, 4473, bill of sale, whatever) to anyone after 9/30/13, the defendant has a problem;

4. Gun made before 10/1/13 and from the date of manufacturer through 9/30/13 the chain of transfer evidence can be broken or complete, and there is evidence of ownership by someone other than the defendant anytime after 9/30/13, the defendant has a problem;

5. Gun made after 9/30/13 - Never mind the chain of ownership, defendant owns an illegal, non-grandfathered gun and has a problem.

The state in a criminal case, like a plaintiff in a civil case, bears the burden of offering evidence of the defendant's guilt/responsibility. In all of the hypotheticals where the defendant has a problem, there is evidence that the state points at to establish guilt.

If the state/plaintiff offers no evidence establishing the necessary elements of its case, the judge should dismiss at the end of the state's case, even before the defense presents its case. In reality, cases without evidence shouldn't be brought to trial in the first place.

 

[judah7]

next question, if I bring one in........how will they know if its post 2013? It's volunteer registration, I just wouldn't register it. how is any of this enforced? have you guys been in a situation where you had to prove you were rocking a HBAR?

Damn sir you really asking on a public forum how to break the law?