Lending to family?

[swinokur]

for consideration means money. no consideration, no rental.

 

[esqappellate]

for consideration means money. no consideration, no rental.

Well, consideration is a thing of value, it need not be actually "money" per se.

 

[swinokur]

well if nothing of consideration is exchanged, is it not then not a rental?

 

[esqappellate]

well if nothing of consideration is exchanged, is it not then not a rental?

no consideration, no rental. Consideration can be money, and most often is money, but need not be *only* money.

 

[swinokur]

that was my point to Thier. a loan is not a rental under the statue if nothing of consideration is involved.

but that opens another can of worms....

 

[fabsroman]

I think the same result would obtain under state law, which (unlike federal law) expressly criminalizes straw purchases. A purchaser identity lie on form 4473 sufficient to support a conviction under Section 922(a)(6) will be fully sufficient as a basis for conviction under state law too. And yes, both the State and the federal government could separately try and convict the straw purchaser and impose jail time.

Yep. It makes life wonderful now doesn't it. I keep telling my wife that I have no idea how people without a law school education make it through life. I guess they just do so not having any clue whatsoever what the laws are and just hoping they do not run afoul of a law that will land them in prison.

Pretty sure neither of my brothers, both of whom own a ton of firearms, would have any idea what 922(r) is.

Heck, my brother in-law that works for Skadin called me up right at the end of June to discuss SBR's, suppressors, and a NFA trust.

We live in a complicated world.

 

[fabsroman]

no consideration, no rental. Consideration can be money, and most often is money, but need not be *only* money.

Consideration is anything of value. If you "loan" a gun to somebody in exchange for that somebody providing professional services, vegetables, firewood, cement, gravel, asphalt shingles, nails, etc. to you, then it is a rental.

If you barter with somebody, it usually results in taxable income. A lot of people do not know that bartering their services is taxable income, but I digress.

 

[eruby]

Heck, my brother in-law that works for Skadin called me up right at the end of June to discuss SBR's, suppressors, and a NFA trust.....

???

https://www.skadden.com/

 

[fabsroman]

???

https://www.skadden.com/

Yep. One of the largest law firms in the world. Guessing they do not have a firearms/FFL department, or maybe that department is only for the big boys like Remington, Beretta, etc.

 

[Brooklyn]

That is actually not correct, viz., it can be a straw purchase if you are buying a firearm for someone else, *regardless* of whether they can legally buy the firearm. Here is the statutory definition found in Md Code Public Safety 5-101(t):
(t) "Straw purchase" means a sale of a regulated firearm in which a person uses another, known as the straw purchaser, to:
(1) complete the application to purchase a regulated firearm;
(2) take initial possession of the regulated firearm; and
(3) subsequently transfer the regulated firearm to the person.

A straw purchase of a regulated firearm is prohibited by PS 5-136 which provides that "A person may not knowingly or willfully participate in a straw purchase of a regulated firearm." And PS 5-141 provides that "A dealer or other person may not be a knowing participant in a straw purchase of a regulated firearm to a minor or to a person prohibited by law from possessing a regulated firearm."

Now the penalties are different for a straw purchase, depending on whether the purchase is for a prohibited person or for a non-prohibited person. For the knowing participation in a straw sale to a prohibited person (or a minor), the penalty is 10 years in state prison (PS 5-141). For the knowing "participation" in a straw purchase (or any other sale in violation of Section 5, subtitle 1, like a sale or receipt of a handgun in violation of the HQL requirements) even for a non-prohibited person is punishable by up to 5 years in prison (PS 5-144).

BTW: A straw purchase is also a false statement on federal Form 4473 in violation of 18 U.S.C. 922(a)(6). Question 11.a. on Form 4473 asks (with bolded emphasis appearing on the form itself):
“Are you the actual transferee/buyer of the firearm(s) listed on this form? Warning: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person. If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you."

See Abramski v. United States, 134 S.Ct. 2259 (2014). That applies to the sale of *any* firearm (including long guns) and includes sales for otherwise perfectly legal purchasers. (Id.). That is punishable under federal law with 10 years in prison under 18 U.S.C. 924(a)(2).

May I suggest a sticky on this. It comes up often and this is by far the best most textbook answer I have ever seen.

All hail. Esqappelatte.

 

[Brooklyn]

Yep. It makes life wonderful now doesn't it. I keep telling my wife that I have no idea how people without a law school education make it through life. I guess they just do so not having any clue whatsoever what the laws are and just hoping they do not run afoul of a law that will land them in prison.

Pretty sure neither of my brothers, both of whom own a ton of firearms, would have any idea what 922(r) is.

Heck, my brother in-law that works for Skadin called me up right at the end of June to discuss SBR's, suppressors, and a NFA trust.

We live in a complicated world.

1. They don't get caught.

2. When enough get caught.. life will get less complicated. Don't ask how

 

[Brooklyn]

Consideration is anything of value. If you "loan" a gun to somebody in exchange for that somebody providing professional services, vegetables, firewood, cement, gravel, asphalt shingles, nails, etc. to you, then it is a rental.

If you barter with somebody, it usually results in taxable income. A lot of people do not know that bartering their services is taxable income, but I digress.

Interesting question...is friendship a consideration...


Anything which serves to bind and agreement would seem to be a consideration..


I guess my question is refined to this. " Must consideration be tangible?", in this context.

 

[swinokur]

Brooklyn must be a Starbuks fan.

why else hail Esqappelatte?

make mine a grande

 

[esqappellate]

Yep. It makes life wonderful now doesn't it. I keep telling my wife that I have no idea how people without a law school education make it through life. I guess they just do so not having any clue whatsoever what the laws are and just hoping they do not run afoul of a law that will land them in prison.

Pretty sure neither of my brothers, both of whom own a ton of firearms, would have any idea what 922(r) is.

Heck, my brother in-law that works for Skadin called me up right at the end of June to discuss SBR's, suppressors, and a NFA trust.

We live in a complicated world.

Indeed. https://www.amazon.com/Three-Felonies-Day-Target-Innocent/dp/1594035229

In case anyone is wondering what 922(r) says: "(r) It shall be unlawful for any person to assemble from imported parts any semiautomatic rifle or any shotgun which is identical to any rifle or shotgun prohibited from importation under section 925(d)(3) of this chapter as not being particularly suitable for or readily adaptable to sporting purposes . . . ."

 

[esqappellate]

Interesting question...is friendship a consideration...


Anything which serves to bind and agreement would seem to be a consideration..


I guess my question is refined to this. " Must consideration be tangible?", in this context.

No. It generally has to be a tangible thing (or service) of value.

 

[Schipperke]

$1.00 & OVC

 

[fabsroman]

No. It generally has to be a tangible thing (or service) of value.

A copyright, patent, or trademark is an intangible asset that can be sold and would be considered consideration. Goodwill is another intangible on a balance sheet, but it usually only goes with a company. Almost impossible to sell goodwill by itself. Now, this has me thinking, would a client list be considered an intangible asset, or is that actually tangible? I think it would end up being an intangible asset.

 

[Mark75H]

When the list is typed up and put into an envelope, it certainly has physical exisitance, unlike goodwill or a promise not to compete.

 

[esqappellate]

A copyright, patent, or trademark is an intangible asset that can be sold and would be considered consideration. Goodwill is another intangible on a balance sheet, but it usually only goes with a company. Almost impossible to sell goodwill by itself. Now, this has me thinking, would a client list be considered an intangible asset, or is that actually tangible? I think it would end up being an intangible asset.

Jeez. My guess is that it has market value, so yes

 

[traveller]

A copyright, patent, or trademark is an intangible asset that can be sold and would be considered consideration. Goodwill is another intangible on a balance sheet, but it usually only goes with a company. Almost impossible to sell goodwill by itself. Now, this has me thinking, would a client list be considered an intangible asset, or is that actually tangible? I think it would end up being an intangible asset.

Another federal agency, the DOT, considers 'goodwill' to be something of value. As a result, they will crush anyone who receives 'goodwill' in exchange for use of an aircraft without having all the right pieces of paperwork issued by the government.