Meds on the shelf for SHTF...read "rainy day"

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  • teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,842
    Bel Air
    "No good evidence" because people are not presenting seriological antibody evidence, correct?

    I was sick, sick, sick for 15 years without presenting a positive result. Does that mean I wasn't sick, or possibly that they tests give poor results?

    As I understand it, as yet, NONE of the tests actually test for the bacteria, only ACTIVE immune response to it.

    I have had 3 relapses that were all kicked back with another 3 weeks of doxy. Only once did the tests positively confirm infection returned. Everytime the antibiotic worked

    Serologic testing for antibodies can distinguish between acute and chronic infection, and can tell you IF you have been infected with Lyme. It really cannot distinguish an active infection from a past infection. A Lyme PCR can be done, it detects the presence of DNA from the spirochete. It can be used for monitoring infection. It may be an adjunct, but it is not recommended for the diagnosis of the disease. Diagnosis is still done on the basis of serology. You can be re-infected with Lyme at any time. "Relapses" are often re-infections. There are also other tick-borne diseases which have only recently been identified, and I would bet there are a few more that have yet to be identified.

    Are there people who have antibodies that are undetectable? Likely. There have been a few studies looking at the persistence of the bacteria after treatment with antibiotics. There is no evidence of that occurring. There is a recognized post-Lyme disease syndrome which consists of joint pain, headaches, fatigue etc. It resolves in nearly everyone within 1 year, and occurs in only a small percentage of people. People who have it long-term can have a persistent and permanent arthritis. Nobody understands why. Doxycycline is and interesting antibiotic in that it has and anti-inflammatory effect. It can help things feel better aside from it's bacteria killing properties.

    The symptoms of Lyme are fairly non-specific. They can mimic a lot of other diseases.
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,842
    Bel Air
    I don't mind a lively discussion at all. It's fun.

    Take a look at the second sentence in your second article.

    It is unclear what mechanisms drive this problem, and although slow or ineffective killing of Borrelia burgdorferi has been suggested as an explanation, there is a lack of evidence that viable organisms are present in PTLDS (post treatment Lyme disease syndrome).

    I want to see evidence that the organism persists. There is none. Sure, people can do research on better drugs for killing the bacteria. While Hopkins is a research powerhouse, it doesn't mean that just because they are studying it, then it is true. I want there to be a good reason for putting someone on very long-term or high potency antibiotics, and I want to make sure it works. What if the cause of some people's issue is a co-infection with an as-of-yet undiscovered organism?
     

    Mark75H

    MD Wear&Carry Instructor
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    17,260
    Outside the Gates
    I don't mind a lively discussion at all. It's fun.

    Take a look at the second sentence in your second article.



    I want to see evidence that the organism persists. There is none. Sure, people can do research on better drugs for killing the bacteria. While Hopkins is a research powerhouse, it doesn't mean that just because they are studying it, then it is true. I want there to be a good reason for putting someone on very long-term or high potency antibiotics, and I want to make sure it works. What if the cause of some people's issue is a co-infection with an as-of-yet undiscovered organism?

    I have suspected this from the begining. What if this disease is actually caused by a virus that is infecting the bacteria and the bacteria is simply a secondary vector to the ticks? - or the immune response/disease only makes people ill if they were exposed to some earlier infection, a certain virus or bacteria, or if an earlier infection of something else makes the immune system unable to knock out the bacteria?

    Still, nothing explains why I tested negative but pretty certainly had the infection. Many people are suffering because of this.

    Reinfection - for me it seems likely. Some people attract mosquitos ... I attract spiders and ticks. The other possibility is that the infection is chronic and may have little or nothing to do with the accused squiggly little buggers
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,842
    Bel Air
    I have suspected this from the begining. What if this disease is actually caused by a virus that is infecting the bacteria and the bacteria is simply a secondary vector to the ticks? - or the immune response/disease only makes people ill if they were exposed to some earlier infection, a certain virus or bacteria, or if an earlier infection of something else makes the immune system unable to knock out the bacteria? Still, nothing explains why I tested negative but pretty certainly had the infection. Many people are suffering because of this. Reinfection - for me it seems likely. Some people attract mosquitos ... I attract spiders and ticks. The other possibility is that the infection is chronic and may have little or nothing to do with the accused squiggly little buggers

    The question I have in cases like yours is whether it was really Lyme or perhaps one of these undiscovered critters. Hard to say.

    There is a virus, Hepatitis D or "delta agent" which when present with Hepatitis B really speeds things along. There are a few other such co-infections which exist. Time will tell.
     

    Schipperke

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 19, 2013
    18,774
    So the CDC says.

    Treatment with doxycycline is effective for acute cases, where EM rash is present and the infection is caught early. But the EM rash doesn't always appear, and the borrelia spirochete can be more persistent than that:

    http://jid.oxfordjournals.org/content/197/9/1352.full

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC229521/

    Despite this kind of research showing borrelia's resistance to the typical doxycycline treatment, the CDC and the IDSA choose to attribute ongoing post-treatement symptoms to a host of consequential disorders such as "fibromyalgia" or "chronic fatigue syndrome" (or a host of other "we have no idea" diseases), instead of considering the possibility of an ongoing infection. In their minds, "3 weeks of doxycycline cures Lyme, every time".

    I had the Lyme, did not like it. It got my knees real bad. Then one day one shoulder would ache, then next day something else hurt. Hard to get out of bed.
     

    Mark75H

    MD Wear&Carry Instructor
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    17,260
    Outside the Gates
    The question I have in cases like yours is whether it was really Lyme or perhaps one of these undiscovered critters. Hard to say.

    There is a virus, Hepatitis D or "delta agent" which when present with Hepatitis B really speeds things along. There are a few other such co-infections which exist. Time will tell.

    So, if I was one of your patients I would have only gotten Doxycyclene one time and still be in pain, missing days from work etc?

    I accidentially was put on the interoffice email list when I got the second course of doxy prescribed by one of the practice's PA's. She got called out for "jumping the gun" on the 'script. When it worked, the chatter died down, but it was really interesting seeing how the senior partners would have taken a completely different course and what their feelings about the case were.

    Are doctors afraid of being labeled as quacks and loosing their licenses over things that they know will probably work and at minimum will do no harm? Is it ethics or fear of litigation?
     

    Traveler

    Lighten up Francis
    Jan 18, 2013
    8,227
    AA County
    A lot of damage is done by docs that prescribe antibiotics too quickly. It is the main reason we have resistant strains out there now.
     

    teratos

    My hair is amazing
    MDS Supporter
    Patriot Picket
    Jan 22, 2009
    59,842
    Bel Air
    So, if I was one of your patients I would have only gotten Doxycyclene one time and still be in pain, missing days from work etc? I accidentially was put on the interoffice email list when I got the second course of doxy prescribed by one of the practice's PA's. She got called out for "jumping the gun" on the 'script. When it worked, the chatter died down, but it was really interesting seeing how the senior partners would have taken a completely different course and what their feelings about the case were. Are doctors afraid of being labeled as quacks and loosing their licenses over things that they know will probably work and at minimum will do no harm? Is it ethics or fear of litigation?

    Not the case, necessarily. Depends on the time frame. If it were a few weeks after the first course, I would encourage you to wait. The post-lyme disease syndrome can last a while after the Lyme is treated. It can even get worse before it gets better. If you were fine and a few months later has recurring symptoms, I would treat you based on those symptoms. Antibiotics are not benign drugs. To confound things, doxycycline is a good anti-inflammatory, which may explain why so many people feel better on it, and believe they have relapsed when they are not taking it.
     

    TheBert

    The Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 10, 2013
    7,732
    Gaithersburg, Maryland
    Here's how to get antibiotics and all the vaccinations you never wanted. International travel. Go to an immunologist and tell them that your employer plans to send you to a remote area in China or India. Search on a map and pick a city known for Malaria and/or dengue fever. You will get a travel pack of antibiotics like Levaquin (used for anthrax), sutures, and needles (to bring with you if you have to go to a hospital. In those regions needles and sutures are expensive and often reused on multiple patients). You will also get more shots than you ever imagined and will be prescribed for a Malaria prophylaxis which you'll be instructed to take before, during and after your trip.

    A guy I worked with was going to Bangalore, India several years ago. He got the needed shots and other medicines. about 3 days later we found him passed out on the floor of his office and the ambulance carted him away to the hospital for a couple of days stay in the hospital.
     

    Mark75H

    MD Wear&Carry Instructor
    Industry Partner
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 25, 2011
    17,260
    Outside the Gates
    4 years each time between effective treatments, not weeks or months. Sounds a little like re-infection, but its starting to be suspicious clockwork.

    I understand how the doxy could be working for a few weeks, maybe even months. But the years - I don't think its just the anti-inflamitory effect.

    We'll see if I ever have another flare up ... but we have 4 years to wait
     

    Docster

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 19, 2010
    9,775
    I don't mind a lively discussion at all. It's fun.

    Take a look at the second sentence in your second article.



    I want to see evidence that the organism persists. There is none. Sure, people can do research on better drugs for killing the bacteria. While Hopkins is a research powerhouse, it doesn't mean that just because they are studying it, then it is true. I want there to be a good reason for putting someone on very long-term or high potency antibiotics, and I want to make sure it works. What if the cause of some people's issue is a co-infection with an as-of-yet undiscovered organism?

    Yep, and that's why we call it "evidence -based medicine ". Even though some people 'just 'know' what disease they have, it's best to have real data and evidence of both disease and treatments results.

    Returning to the OP, getting fish antibiotics is easy online. If they are labeled "USP" they meet they same standards as Rx. Otherwise, many peppers just ask their provider to write for a refill (s) for future use.
     

    Evojoeix

    Ultimate Member
    Jul 2, 2014
    1,292
    will a doc just write a prescription for you if you tell him you prep? is that legal? please excuse my ignorance on this, i have no idea of the can and cants of prescriptions
     

    ground chuck

    Rookie Jedi
    Sep 28, 2013
    4,206
    Charm City County
    will a doc just write a prescription for you if you tell him you prep? is that legal? please excuse my ignorance on this, i have no idea of the can and cants of prescriptions
    Depends on what you want but most likely no. I have doctor friend that wont even write a script for ibuprofen so I take his money at the poker table. Lol
     

    Boxcab

    MSI EM
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 22, 2007
    7,918
    AA County
    Alright...

    Who will pull together a summary of this discussion? A shopping list if you will, with a short statement on the acquisition and use of each product.

    It would be a big effort, but would be greatly appreciated by the rest of us!

    Thanks to all who have contributed.
     

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