New Twist In Machine Gun Suit

[tc617]

Yep

Wolfwood (lawyer on the plaintiffs legal team) posted it in the thread he started

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=164477

I didn't know that there was another thread. Thanks!

 

[BenL]

Can someone put this into layman's terms what this might mean? Does this only mean that we can now put new MGs on the books and that the "value" of MGs, which has skyrocketed since the late 80s will drop, or does this mean that MGs will be legal to own without requiring an ATF tax stamp? Or is it both? Or Neither?

Their argument isn't about the tax stamp; it's about the arbitrary date of May 19, 1986. The argument goes, why are full auto firearms made *before* 1986 ok for personal ownership, but those identical firearms made just after are not safe for civilian ownership? The obvious answer is, they're not.

I hope this gets legs. If you've invested in a machine gun, you're value will crash, but freedom will have a victory.

 

[Inigoes]

I hope this gets legs. If you've invested in a machine gun, you're value will crash, but freedom will have a victory.

Doubtful on the value remark.

Some of the older MGs will still be collector pieces no matter what.

Now, the UZIs, MP5s and MAC10s, they will be a dime a dozen.

 

[bobthefisher]

Doubtful on the value remark.

Some of the older MGs will still be collector pieces no matter what.

Now, the UZIs, MP5s and MAC10s, they will be a dime a dozen.

That's partially the reason I chose an FN-FNC MG, other than the cost. For me, an original Belgium import, whether it be full-auto or not, will always have better intrinsic collector value. Better then just some (non-Colt) converted AR-15. I've also liked various different types of imports, but that's besides the point. Personal taste I guess.

 

[trickg]

Interesting stuff. We are invested in a machine gun - the family has (I don't have it. Yet) a Thompson MG. I know my Dad always wanted me to have it, but my Mom has hung on to it and I think has designs on selling it at some point due to the fact that it is so valuable now, and she's in her retirement years where that kind of money would be a nice financial shot in the arm if she ever needed it.

Of course that Thompson wasn't that valuable when my Dad bought it in the late 50s or early 60s, but that's kind of how things go for collectible firearms - the Winchester 1886 (that I did get) with rare features is another one - Dad paid $60 for it in 1958.

I'd really like to get my hands on that Thompson, simply because I know how my Dad felt about it, but if UZIs and MP5s become easily available again, I think I could be convinced to "settle" for a couple of those.

 

[pwoolford]

Their argument isn't about the tax stamp; it's about the arbitrary date of May 19, 1986. The argument goes, why are full auto firearms made *before* 1986 ok for personal ownership, but those identical firearms made just after are not safe for civilian ownership? The obvious answer is, they're not.

I hope this gets legs. If you've invested in a machine gun, you're value will crash, but freedom will have a victory.

I would be sad for the few seconds it took to order my MP5 + several other very cool new MG's! Oh and the post '86 thing never made any sense to me either. That part has always been idiotic to me.

 

[IMBLITZVT]

Yeah the value I would lose in my M16 and Mac would be forgotten about in about 10 seconds as I went home to convert/build 15 other guns into MGs... Screw the $20K lose in value, I would have $200K (at current prices) of MGs by years end. Even if I didn't, the idea of my kids living in a free world is worth far more than the value in my MGs.

That said, its still a pipe dream guys...

 

[erwos]

If they lifted the MG ban, even for a single damn day, I'd get a stamp for pretty much every rifle I had. I could even deal with the conversions later, that magic stamp letting me do it is what counts.

 

[BLACKTALON]

SCAR, Glock, ALL MY akm's my krinkov lol I would do two or three grand of stamps

 

[Z_Man]

Doubtful on the value remark.

Some of the older MGs will still be collector pieces no matter what.

Now, the UZIs, MP5s and MAC10s, they will be a dime a dozen.

one can only dream... an MP5 with a can....

 

[fred333]

one can only dream... an MP5 with a can....

 

[ericoak]

Well considering we are going to sell Israel F-35s and rockets, surely we can sell them small arms.

But yea, this lawsuit isn't going to work.

 

[RB5082]

Interesting argument on that poison pill

 

[TheTruth]

Say the lawsuit did work... I am sure the Maryland General Assembly would try to end it all at the state level. Pre, post, whatever... it wouldn't matter if the state law says no and the anti's have the votes. The lawsuit is a big hill to climb... getting the state to abide is even bigger, even with a change of Governor.

Has anyone considered what the state legislature could do or may do to head this off? We should be careful what we wish for to upset the status quo.... there are a handful of states that do not allow possession or transfer. I would be really upset if I had 30 days to sell something out of state or be an instant felon. I know that is speculation, but it has happened in other states.

Just my two cents...

 

[ducrider45]

Say the lawsuit did work... I am sure the Maryland General Assembly would try to end it all at the state level. Pre, post, whatever... it wouldn't matter if the state law says no and the anti's have the votes. The lawsuit is a big hill to climb... getting the state to abide is even bigger, even with a change of Governor.

Has anyone considered what the state legislature could do or may do to head this off? We should be careful what we wish for to upset the status quo.... there are a handful of states that do not allow possession or transfer. I would be really upset if I had 30 days to sell something out of state or be an instant felon. I know that is speculation, but it has happened in other states.

Just my two cents...

If the ban was found to be unconstitutional, wouldn't that open the door to reverse other States prohibitions on ownership? Seems like the courts would be saying that these weapons are covered under the 2A?

 

[Inigoes]

Judge Lynn was appointed by Clinton. Fat chance that she rules against GCA. It'd have to go all the way to the Supreme Court. And the Court that ruled in Heller likely would either deny cert or would consider a ban on machine-guns part of the reasonable restrictions that the Heller decisions allows for, citing that they are "unusual" for civilians to possess. Catch-22 logic.

We all know the arbitrary "1986" date has nothing to do with the actual firearms and how safe/dangerous they are in the hands of any given person. It's a way of "killing them softly"...creating a ban that gradually seizes hold and squeezes instead of outright destroying the trade of these items. Prices go up, receivers wear out, and politicians can still say, "Hey, it's not a TOTAL ban!"

It's really BATFE's fault for trying to say "a trust is not a person"...they opened themselves up for this. And it's an interesting process to watch. But don't look for the judiciary process to overturn this ban. I think automatic-fire is still going to remain the unofficial "line" between "2A rights" and "public safety".

If it really IS about "freedom from tyranny", semi-automatic rifles are plenty-enough firepower to win a small skirmish, which would allow you to acquire fully-automatic arms from the defeated. The idea of being able to mount full-on neo-patriotic militia resistance against the FEMA death squads is a little farfetched.

I thought this was the same judge that struck down the interstate handgun ban

 

[Biggfoot44]

The GCA dealt with the import of surplus MG's. It was the FOPA that prohibited the mfg of MG for sale to individuals in '86.

Colt sells a buncha select fire rifles to foreign Gov'ts, no reason S&W couldn't compete if they choose. ( Or any other 007/SOT.)

The mfg costs for a FA AR,are essentially the same as for a semiauto AR.

 

[Inigoes]

I'd consider legalizing interstate handgun purchases trivial compared to legalizing new machine-gun purchases. But maybe that's just me.

I would think the other way around

Interstate Handgun = GCA68, which the SCOTUS has upheld a constitutional

FOPA = Hughes Amendment = No such ruling

 

[Tcap137]

I could only imagine the tidal wave of applications if the '86 limitations were overturned. Both analog and e-forms processing would be swamped with form 1's while we waited for the price of new manufactures to go down. The first lots on the market day-of would probably be listed at 10k for the buy-em-while-you-can market, which would probably run for 6 months until the Form 4 backlog started to get to a reasonable time.

That's a long time for someone to come up with some 'enlightened' legislation again to turn off the flood toys. Lucky it's not an election year. Q1 2016 will be the time to buy if you can wait 'till after Christmas!

 

[rbird7282]

one can only dream... an MP5 with a can....

Probably the sweetest MG I've ever shot.