Question about different dies

[jackpollard]

I hope this is not too stupid a question, but I'm kind of stumped. I use the Lee precision deluxe 3 die set for my .308. I've been using the full length sizing die and the bullet seating die. I measure and make sure everything is spec. Included is a collet die which sizes the neck, I've not used that. The full length de-primes and puts the case in spec, so why should I use the collet die?

Thanks in advance.

 

[BUFF7MM]

For a bolt gun the neck sizing die is the way to go. After the first firing your cases will be fire formed to that perticular rifles chamber, it will let you get more use out of your cases as you aren't working the brass as much. You should full length size your brass after maybe 3 to 5 firings tho.

 

[jimbobborg]

Use the collet die to neck size only if you are using the same bolt or single-shot rifle you used to get that case. That way you aren't over-working the brass and makes for better accuracy. If it's for a semi-auto or you're using the new ammo in other rifles don't use it.

 

[jackpollard]

Oh! I tried both and the full length seemed to decently need more pressure, the collet seemed like it almost had no resistance.

Should I try the collet 1st, measure, then if out of spec use the full? I didn't realize the full would work the brass more, but it makes sense.

Thanks for the response.

Thanks also Jim, got it!

 

[lx1x]

Oh! I tried both and the full length seemed to decently need more pressure, the collet seemed like it almost had no resistance.

Should I try the collet 1st, measure, then if out of spec use the full? I didn't realize the full would work the brass more, but it makes sense.

Thanks for the response.

Thanks also Jim, got it!

Most if not all semi auto requires full sizing.

What are you reloading for?

 

[BUFF7MM]

Oh! I tried both and the full length seemed to decently need more pressure, the collet seemed like it almost had no resistance.

Should I try the collet 1st, measure, then if out of spec use the full? I didn't realize the full would work the brass more, but it makes sense.

Thanks for the response.

Thanks also Jim, got it!

If its new brass or once fired from another gun you need to full length size it, after you fire the cases in your gun then you can neck size it.

 

[E.Shell]

.......you aren't working the brass as much....

...you aren't over-working the brass...

The common theme here is "overworking". Stop it. Throw away your die instructions. Be free to adjust your die to fit YOUR rifle.

I've handloaded since 1971 and used to really believe in neck sizing, automatically buying a neck die for every new caliber, but have finally seen the light and given it up.

I set my full length dies to provide ONLY .002" shoulder bump. This setting eliminates the problems most handloaders associate with full length sizing, provides perpetually smooth function and better overall accuracy in most guns.

When I used to go overboard on my full length resizing (using the die maker's dubious instructions), I saw excessive case stretch, leading to a lot of tedious trimming and impending head separations. I wouldn't blame anyone for trying to avoid this, and at first blush, neck sizing seems to be the answer.

The problems with neck sizing are:

At some point, function issues will arise as the brass expands to fit the chamber, then doesn't spring all the way back. The obvious problem is that eventually there is no slack and we will have a slight interference as we chamber a round.

Loads closer to maximum spring back less and exacerbate this issue, yet solidly consistent velocities are not usually attained until we are near maximum working pressures.

Then, unless your chamber is PERFECT, there will always be a slight misalignment between the chamber and bore axis. This is especially prevalent with factory guns and with rifles chambered by traditionalist gunsmiths who spin the entire barrel between centers and indicate center at the muzzle. It becomes the luck of the draw whether the throat is square and straight or not.

As we improve fit between the off-center chamber and the cartridge case, the bullet is held more and more in misalignment with the actual bore axis. Accuracy goes south, and the worse your chamber>bore alignment, the faster this happens and the more obvious the problem. You will even see benchrest competitors go to a full length sizing cycle with any given lot of brass when accuracy seems to fall off.

For non-benchrest guns, neck sizing provide no real benefit over a correctly adjusted full length die, and the better case fit often works against us.

With a constant regimen of full length sizing with a properly adjusted die (no more than .002" shoulder setback), our results are much more consistent and the clearance in the chamber area much more appropriate to a field gun or hunting rifle.

Please understand that the die maker's goal is to have every cartridge loaded in that full length sizing die fit and function in EVERY rifle chambered to SAAMI specs for that caliber.

This means he wants the die adjusted to reduce the case shoulder to provide satisfactory clearance even in a rifle chambered to absolute minimum headspace. Assume worst case: A range pickup case, fired from a sloppy rifle or MG, will be VERY long, yet we would expect this case to chamber in our new, tightly chambered rifle once it has been full length resized. Same thing could be said for case forming, in which we take a longer case and reform it to a shorter headspace condition, such as a .22-250 from a .243. Gotta fit. Period.

Tall order, so when we blindly follow generic 'one size fits all' instructions, we set up some error. The case is literally reduced as far down as the die will allow and very close to unfired length, which is ultimately incompatible with most rifles. Unfortunately, it is the 'fail safe' method for the die maker and the easiest way to explain the set up for those who may not be familiar.

If the full length sizing die is adjusted to the maker's instructions (down hard against the shell holder) longer than necessary headspace is developed for any rifle that is NOT SAAMI minimum chamber length. This means that any rifle chamber longer than "minimum" (95% of them) will stretch cases if the die maker's set up instructions are used.

This is what leads most people to believe full length sizing is their problem, when it is not. The problem is maladjustment of the sizer, not the perception that full length sizing in and of itself is killing brass.

 

[E.Shell]

Oh! I tried both and the full length seemed to decently need more pressure, the collet seemed like it almost had no resistance....

That's because you have already reduced neck diameter with your full length die and there was no real work left to do with the neck die.

Should I try the collet 1st, measure, then if out of spec use the full? I didn't realize the full would work the brass more, but it makes sense....

You would use one die OR the other. You will either neck size or full length size, and both involve reducing neck diameter to hold a bullet. Both operations are not necessary.

 

[jackpollard]

Wow, Ed I read and re-read your comment, thank you. I'm reloading for .308 and .223. AR10 and Mini 14 respectively. My used brass mainly, but some folks said here take mine I don't need it.

I had to look up what shoulder bump meant, I was using exactly what the manufacture said in the manual for adjustment, I understand what your saying about the manu. trying to be as specific as possible. That makes sense to me. So, how should I manage my dies then? I was checking them after with my micrometer and they seemed to spec with both my manual and my spec unfired round.
I wrote down a bunch of questions to research at lunch, my education continues. Would the real test be, between the collet and full, if they are both within spec?And if I can back off the full and still be in spec, that would be the way to go?

 

[BigDaddy]

You should full length size your brass after maybe 3 to 5 firings tho.

Or eventually you will have rounds that won't chamber. Having had that experience, I have gone back to full length sizing.

 

[E.Shell]

.....I'm reloading for .308 and .223. AR10 and Mini 14 respectively. My used brass mainly, but some folks said here take mine I don't need it.

Then you are obligated to full length resize and neck sizing is inappropriate for your application. Wipe down your collet neck die with an oily rag and put it away for some future need, or for your heirs to dispose of.

I had to look up what shoulder bump meant, I was using exactly what the manufacture said in the manual for adjustment, I understand what your saying about the manu. trying to be as specific as possible. That makes sense to me.

Your current die adjustment will provide serviceable ammunition. Longevity may suffer due to stretching, but as hard on brass as semi-autos tend to be, you may not see this issue before others arise.

So, how should I manage my dies then? I was checking them after with my micrometer and they seemed to spec with both my manual and my spec unfired round.

You cannot use a micrometer or caliper to directly measure headspace. Any measurements you can successfully make with your micrometer or caliper (except case length) will be more or less correct unless the die is grossly defective or the case is damaged.

There are headspace measurement attachments for a 6" caliper by various companies, which would be most economical for multiple calibers. These consist of a set of bushings sized correctly to sit on the datum line of any given cartridge. The datum line is an imaginary, sort of, point on the shoulder about half way between the body/shoulder junction and the shoulder/neck junction. Look at your reloading manual or an SAAMI drawing.

The easiest way is to use a directly reading headspace gauge such at that by Mo, or RCBS's direct copy of Mo's gauge. The cartridge is inserted into the gauge and you find a reference measurement. With Mo's gauge, this reading will be your exact headspace length. The RCBS gauge is made to a lesser level of precision and the graduations are intended to be used only as a comparison tool to find relative lengths.

To adjust your die, you would take a case fired in your rifle and measure the fired headspace dimension with the gauge of your choice. You would then adjust your die to provide a .002" reduction in the headspace length, which would provide smooth function and minimal brass work. Clean and test chamber a few cases sized thus and be sure they chamber smoothly. If not, adjust the die down a little further (to .003" reduction and try again. Repeat as necessary to find the balance between excessive resizing and smooth function in your semi-autos.

Another way to accomplish this die setting without tools is to find a cartridge that was fired in another rifle that will not chamber in yours. You mentioned having range pickups and one of these cases may work for your adjustment purposes. You would use the case that will not fit and slowly adjust your full length die to provide just enough clearance to smoothly chamber. With several test cases to zero in on your adjustment, you can get it pretty close and it will definitely be easier on brass than setting the die all the way down.

....my education continues.

Mine too.

Would the real test be, between the collet and full, if they are both within spec?And if I can back off the full and still be in spec, that would be the way to go?

First, your dies are almost 99.999% guaranteed to have been produced 'in spec', so decide what you are attempting to verify.

Then, "in spec" is kind of a nebulous term in this application and maybe not quite the right way to think about it. Specifications imply fixed dimensions referenced to some universal standard, and we have these, but they can work with/against each other.

Your rifle can be 'in spec' with a +/- chamber dimension of several thousandths of an inch. You ammo can be 'in spec' and also be within a rather generously sized bracket of several thousandths.

You can produce 'in spec' ammo on the undersized end of it that will be a sloppy fit in a rifle with a chamber that is also 'in spec', but on the long side.

I have seen rifle chambers so long that a cartridge case sized according to the die maker's instruction that the finished cartridges would not fire dependably. It was so deep into the chamber that the firing pin would not always penetrate the primer enough. The one we gauged headspace on failed a "No Go", but wouldn't allow a "Field" gauge, so it was theoretically still safe to shoot and "in spec", but definitely required a bit of thought when adjusting the full length die. For 100% reliability in this rifle, the ammo was allowed to headspace so long it was just about out of spec - this is why the dies are adjustable, so you can fit YOUR rifle.

Our goal here is 'fitting', and we would like to fit the handloaded ammo to the rifle chamber. In some instances, this best fit will occur close to minimum die adjustment, and at other times, the die will be backed away from the shellholder.

 

[coopermania]

Our goal here is 'fitting', and we would like to fit the handloaded ammo to the rifle chamber. In some instances, this best fit will occur close to minimum die adjustment, and at other times, the die will be backed away from the shellholder.

This statement sums all of this up very well. Well written Mr Shell

 

[Pinecone]

Redding makes a set of shell holders called Competition Shell Holders. These are thicker from the rim slot to the top of the shell holder than normal dies, but in precise amounts.

They allow you to set the die so that it cams over the press (for more repeatable sizing) but not over sizing the cases (bumping the shoulder back too far).

If you are loading say .223 for a single semi auto rifle, you can do the same thing as for a bolt rifle, but bump the shoulder around 3 - 5 thousandths. If you load for multiple rifles, you can find the one with the smallest headspace and size all your rounds for that rifle (3 -5 thou bump) and they will fit the others.

In my .223s, I had to change my setup to size more, as my latest rifle needs the rounds to be pretty much sized to fit a Wilson case gauge. My other rifles can handle rounds a bit longer (shoulder measurement).

Also, that Lee collet die has been shown by some to do a better job of neck concentricity (less runout of the bullet) than standard dies.

There are FL dies that use interchangeable bushings to size the neck. And Redding makes Body Dies, which ONLY size the body of the case. You could use one of these (the FL with bushing, without installing a bushing), then the Collet die for the neck if you really wanted to do so.

For longer case life, look into annealing the cases every so often. This removes the work hardening of the shoulder/neck area from the repeating firing/sizing. But many semi auto cases life limits are based on stretching just above the base.

 

[E.Shell]

Redding makes a set of shell holders called Competition Shell Holders. These are thicker from the rim slot to the top of the shell holder than normal dies, but in precise amounts.

They allow you to set the die so that it cams over the press (for more repeatable sizing) but not over sizing the cases (bumping the shoulder back too far).

If you are loading say .223 for a single semi auto rifle, you can do the same thing as for a bolt rifle, but bump the shoulder around 3 - 5 thousandths. If you load for multiple rifles, you can find the one with the smallest headspace and size all your rounds for that rifle (3 -5 thou bump) and they will fit the others.

In my .223s, I had to change my setup to size more, as my latest rifle needs the rounds to be pretty much sized to fit a Wilson case gauge. My other rifles can handle rounds a bit longer (shoulder measurement).

Also, that Lee collet die has been shown by some to do a better job of neck concentricity (less runout of the bullet) than standard dies.

There are FL dies that use interchangeable bushings to size the neck. And Redding makes Body Dies, which ONLY size the body of the case. You could use one of these (the FL with bushing, without installing a bushing), then the Collet die for the neck if you really wanted to do so.

For longer case life, look into annealing the cases every so often. This removes the work hardening of the shoulder/neck area from the repeating firing/sizing. But many semi auto cases life limits are based on stretching just above the base.

Good post.

 

[jimbobborg]

I could use a .308 neck die. My Ishapore shoots 7.62 NATO so I can actually reload those. Can't do that with the CETME, though. One and done with that one.

 

[Magnumite]

I've used the method Ed Shell mentioned for bolt guns and never used a neck sizer. I've never had premature case separation nor that stretch mark indicating case stretch. Accuracy was excellent.

I will, however, try Ed's recommendation for semi auto rifle case sizing to build good match ammo.


Thanks, Ed.

 

[John from MD]

I could use a .308 neck die. My Ishapore shoots 7.62 NATO so I can actually reload those. Can't do that with the CETME, though. One and done with that one.

Can you explain by what you mean by "one and done with that one." Isn't the CETME a 7.62 NATO rifle also?

John

 

[BUFF7MM]

Can you explain by what you mean by "one and done with that one." Isn't the CETME a 7.62 NATO rifle also?

John

I'm gonna say he's talking about the fluted chamber, it makes the brass look like a stop sign when you look at it from the mouth. The PTR91 does the same thing.

 

[John from MD]

I figured that was what he might have been leading up to.

However, I loaded those for years without any issues. I loaded them to 2800 FPS with 150gn surplus bullets and shot them until I got cracks in the neck or shoulder. Never had a head separation or any other major issue with brass that came out of a fluted chamber.

John

 

[coopermania]

The problem I have with the fluted chamber H&K's is, My G3 tends to twist the rims and you can't get them in a shell holder.