Time to Buy a Garand... Need Your Help!

[smores]

Ok, so now that I'm a member of two CMP-affiliated organizations, I figure it's time to look into buying a Garand. As a gunsmith, I have not worked on them very much, but I have read Kuhnhausen's book on the .30 Cal service rifles. It's a lot to digest, and I'm more of a hands-on learner. I want one of these rifles before I can't get one anymore or have to pay even more than they cost today.

I have been considering a service-grade rifle, as they're about $700, and H&R built rifles are available as of today.

However, I think I'd rather pay more for a Special grade. I am not buying this rifle as a collector's item, and I'm not terribly concerned about it being 100% correct. I want a solid shooter so I can enjoy shooting this rifle and have something that's in the best condition possible so I can hand it down to the next generation when the time comes.

What are the general feelings on these Special grade rifles? From what I understand all of these rifles have new Criterion barrels and have been refinished or had worn parts replaced with new ones.

My last question is whether to go with .30-06 or .308? The Special Grade rifles in stock today are on Springfield Armory USGI receivers (I think). Now, I guess I could really flip a coin on this, as I know the .30-06 is the original cartridge our boys carried around kicking Axis ass with. However, .308 is also a good cartridge, and I have other .308 rifles which would make my ammo purchasing and reloading activities a bit simpler. I'm also assuming this is true .308 Winchester and not 7.62x51mm NATO?

However, I would assume that this being a NEW barrel, it would have been chambered in .308 specifically, but it says that "a .308 spacer block is installed to prevent the loading of a .30-06 round into the chamber". This gives me concern, as I do not know what method is used to install this spacer block. I assume it's the same thing as the "bushing" referred to in the Kuhnhausen manual. He warns that all spacers will eventually come out if they were not either installed into a grooved chamber or interference fit. Or is this "spacer block" something different? I searched around the intarwebz and didn't find much help, figured with all the C&R guys here you could steer me straight.

Also, do the .308 rifles use different clips or the standard .30-06 ones?

Thanks!

 

[Threeband]

The .308 isn't legal for John C Garand matches, but otherwise has a lot to recommend it.

The "spacer block" is not a chamber insert. It's just an easily removable block that goes in the front of the magazine, to fill the extra space created by the shorter cartridge. It is completely unnecessary: it's only purpose is to save people the embarrassment of trying to load .30-06. Think of it: so what if you do load a .30-06 clip? The round won't chamber, the bolt won't close. Everyone will laugh at you, but no harm will be done.


Still, I say get the .30-06 if you're only getting one.

(Clips are the same, whether used for .30-06, .308, .270, .243, or 7mm-08)

 

[steves1911]

Get the 06 cmp still has plenty of hxp available and allows you to purchase 10 cans a year.

 

[stu929]

Exactly what three band says.

The stock still will need some fitting on a special fyi. If you ever want to shoot a garand match or if its your only rifle 06. Otherwise a 308 will serve you well.

FWIW my service grade hra was essentially new and is very accurate. If you go SG add a sticky requesting the besf barrel wear numbers available you might get lucky!

 

[budman93]

I would just get a service grade. I got a service grade springfield and it is in excellent condition. Its about 1955 and looks like it was hardly ever used.

 

[UpperMarlboroMan]

I just went through the same "decision tree" as you described in your original post. I decided upon the HRA Service Grade. It would seem though that you might get the HRA Special or a SA Service Grade quicker these days as these are showing up in the North and South Stores in the past couple of weeks. They don't list the SA's on the website any longer, but they are coming across them and offering them in the stores and they also email some folks that ordered HRAs and asking if they would like to switch.

I would highly recommend registering for the CMP forum and follow along there as well. People routinely report on their order timeline and post pictures of the rifles they received. That helped me make my decision for the HRA SG. To be honest, I don't care if the wood is old or new. I am getting it more to use and enjoy rather than as a "collectible" firearm. These rifles have usually been refurbed at least once (the WWII models especially) and are frequently mixmasters anyway. My dad really wants a .308 Special Grade with new wood and barrel, so maybe soon I can get him one of those as well.

 

[8milimeter]

M1

Service Grade HRA or CMP Special (HRA) with Criterion Barrel

 

[why2kmax]

I went through the same decision making process and ended up ordering a 30-06 service grade. I figured Id roll the dice and save a few hundred $$ for a CZ82.

It came in and its a beautiful gun. a ding or two on the stock but looks great overall. Far nicer than others Ive seen in stores for $1000+. Finish on the metal is great. Outwardly all H&R parts but not numbers matching. Metal finish is nice and the muzzle and throat gauged at 1+ and 2 If I remember correctly. Well worth the $$ paid. Having said that I dont think you can go wrong with a new totally refurbed rifle. Again, well worth the $$ and through CMP less $$$ than youd pay locally or online IMO. You just have to wait.

 

[Threeband]

...Outwardly all H&R parts but not numbers matching...

Actually, Garands do not have "matching numbers". The Europeans like to stamp serial numbers all over the gun, but Garands only have one serial number, on the receiver heel. Those other numbers are mostly Drawing Numbers, with a few Heat Lot Codes added for decorative effect.

Here's a link to a reference for Garand parts.

http://battlerifle0.tripod.com/

The key to many parts is the Drawing number, the identifier for that parts mechanical drawing or "blueprint".

This IHC mixmaster has a Springfield bolt. If the Drawing number is D29287-19SA , then it's WWII vintage, "Used from 3,500,000 to end of WWII production." according to http://battlerifle0.tripod.com/id3.html . I'm confused, though because your photo looks like D28287-19SA, which isn't listed. There is a Bolt D28287-2SA . It makes me a little uncertain about the reference source. Please tell me that's D29287-19SA. Anyway, the A5 is the Heat Lot code for the batch of steel used to make that bolt.

(EDIT- I found a printed reference to D28287-19SA Heat Lot A5 as being made in January, 1945.)

This gives you an idea of how to check "correctness" on Garand parts. The Serial Number on the receiver (the only serial number on a Garand) gives you an idea of production date. Then you compare Drawing numbers and variations in the minor parts to see if they're consistent with that date or period of production.

The SA bolt tells you right off that it's a good, honest Mixmaster. Further inspection will tell you if it's mostly IHC or not. The AAG stock cartouche indicates a rebuild at Augusta Arsenal, Georgia . If you field strip it, you might find an electropenciled rebuild marking on the receiver leg with the date of the rebuild.

You'll also be able to check the Drawing number on the receiver leg, and ensure that it's consistent with late IHC production. You want to check that on any Garand of unknown (non DCM or CMP) provenence. You want to be sure the front and back halves of the receiver are from the same gun! Years ago, the government cut a lot of M1 receivers in half and sold them for scrap. Buyers welded them back together, sometimes welding a Winchester front to an SA back, and so on. The real check for a reweld is to inspect for subtle irregularities, especially in the op rod channel. They can be very subtle. Rewelds should be avoided. They are not for shooting.

If the barrel is original to the receiver, it should be marked LMR, dated between 53 and 55. You can see the markings when you pull the op rod back to expose the right side of the barrel near the chamber.

Nothing wrong with a Mixmaster, though. In a way, I think they're more authentic than a "corrected" rifle. It was routine practice for Garands to be disassembled in large batches for cleaning and maintainance, then reassembled with parts all mixed up. So they tended to become Mixmasters very quickly. Rebuilds like this one were often totally disassembled to the last screw and pin, then new rifles were assembled from the parts.
So American rifles really should be Mixmasters. And they make fine shooters.


Well, that's a start. I'm not a Collector, just an interested Shooter. You might take your questions to the CMP Forum. There are some experts who hang out there.

http://forums.thecmp.org/

If the bore, throat, and muzzle are good, if the lock-up is tight, and the sight isn't worn, I'd guess $800 to up to $1000 could be fair. I think the IHC adds a little value, even in a rebuilt Mixmaster.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=2534228&postcount=19

 

[Mooseman]

I voted 30.06, mainly because I am originalist.

 

[rdc]

I have both springfield And HRA service grades. Never regretted it, never wished I bought a special. They were in very different conditions though.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=124370

Go with 06. Get an M1A to cover .308
Buy the service grade and spend the difference on HXP from CMP

 

[Sundazes]

I have both springfield And HRA service grades. Never regretted it, never wished I bought a special. They were in very different conditions though.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=124370

Go with 06. Get an M1A to cover .308

Thanks to SB281, you can't get an M1A in the state anymore. They are banned by name.

 

[rdc]

The OP lives in VA. He is not constrained by the Byzentine AssHattery that is SB281.

 

[smdub]

Now that its Oct, is it time to finally do a road trip to CMP? Im in.

 

[stu929]

Ill drive if we want to get a group together.

Its been to long since my last visit.

 

[Sundazes]

The OP lives in VA. He is not constrained by the Byzentine AssHattery that is SB281.

My bad, never mind.

 

[monsternav]

What do you really want to do with it?

If it's a collectors piece that you might compete with occasionally or informally, get a service grade.

If you want to use it seriously, get a special grade. You can put a modern finish on the wood, bed it, NM parts, dick with the handguard and stuff that needs to be done to accurize it, without ruining an original (I consider standard CMP mix-masters to be original. As they are as they would be in service).

Or buy a receiver and put all the parts together yourself.

30-06 can do JC Garand matches, 308 cannot. Otherwise I don't really see a difference.

If unsure, my standard answer: Get the less expensive one and see if you like it or not.

You will make money on your CMP service grade if you need to sell it to fund another purchase.

 

[stu929]

If you really want to spend the 950 buy the service grade and three cans of hxp.

Have a blast!

 

[JHE1956]

If you are like me and are looking for a sense of the Garand's history, get the 30-06. As far as I know, a Garand in .308 never fired a shot in combat.

 

[why2kmax]

Thank you for the info threeband. I Do appreciate it.

Actually, Garands do not have "matching numbers". The Europeans like to stamp serial numbers all over the gun, but Garands only have one serial number, on the receiver heel. Those other numbers are mostly Drawing Numbers, with a few Heat Lot Codes added for decorative effect.



http://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=2534228&postcount=19