What makes an HBAR an HBAR?

[Markp]

Tell me, which of the following are HBARS? BTW, none of them were transferred on a 77R!

 

[swinokur]

In this case MSP won't know it when they see it.

 

[NRA-Benefactor]

I will be putting this to the test tomorrow.

Ordered two HEAVY barrel Rock River Elite Operators from Joe Bob Outfitters.

Will the FFL sell them to me cash and carry???

We will see.....

 

[Markp]

In this case MSP won't know it when they see it.

Surprisingly, the 16" green one is a TRUE HBAR with a Noveske Barrel.

 

[Brooklyn]

I know. I'm looking back at how and why the HBAR was first exempted years ago.
People tend to focus on the heavy barrel and I believe it was he fixed stock that gave it an exemption because the rifle could not be compacted.

Why are you doing this? The stock on an ar is modular. Period. It is not part of the gun. Can I cash and carry a used hbar with a missing stock? If not why not? Can I cash and carry and hbar or lower without a barrel at all ?
hum?



For the love of god they do not need our help. And if they do change the interpretation for the same statutory language we will have a ready made court challenge.


And it makes nor difference why it is exempt, only that the law as written makes it so. The part of the gun that makes it an hbar is the barrel.

Try an cash and carry a fixed stock AR with a tappered barrel if you do nor believe me.

Please Please Please oay attention to the real fight we have ahead of us....

Please.

 

[7A38]

I know. I'm looking back at how and why the HBAR was first exempted years ago.
People tend to focus on the heavy barrel and I believe it was he fixed stock that gave it an exemption because the rifle could not be compacted.

No, it has nothing to do with that. The argument (which was completely legitimate) that got it exempted was that it was a competition gun.

Also, it is clear that we will still be able to purchase HBAR ARs (regardless of who makes them) after Oct 1, 2013, and they will continue to be unregulated rifles.

7A38

 

[anil]

Also, it is clear that we will still be able to purchase HBAR ARs (regardless of who makes them) after Oct 1, 2013, and they will continue to be unregulated rifles.

7A38

I guess the new question is, can we re-upper a post-MOM HBAR, to a non HBAR/flash hider/"banned format" and still be within the law.

 

[hdatontodo]

The FFL's opinion makes an HBAR an HBAR. Every dealer is different. Their business equals their rules.

I took a Colt 6721 HBAR to the gun shop in Essex who said they would be reselling it as a regulated rifle since it wasn't the original Colt Sporter HBAR

When I bought it, my local FFL handled it as unregulated.

 

[NateIU10]

I guess the new question is, can we re-upper a post-MOM HBAR, to a non HBAR/flash hider/"banned format" and still be within the law.

I would say no.

I took a Colt 6721 HBAR to the gun shop in Essex who said they would be reselling it as a regulated rifle since it wasn't the original Colt Sporter HBAR

When I bought it, my local FFL handled it as unregulated.

Ffl's choice, buy out should be unregulated.

 

[smores]

Why are you doing this? The stock on an ar is modular. Period. It is not part of the gun. Can I cash and carry a used hbar with a missing stock? If not why not? Can I cash and carry and hbar or lower without a barrel at all ?
hum?



For the love of god they do not need our help. And if they do change the interpretation for the same statutory language we will have a ready made court challenge.


And it makes nor difference why it is exempt, only that the law as written makes it so. The part of the gun that makes it an hbar is the barrel.

Try an cash and carry a fixed stock AR with a tappered barrel if you do nor believe me.

Please Please Please oay attention to the real fight we have ahead of us....

Please.

Confusion on HBAR abounds. It's been a while since I've been in Atlantic Guns Rockville, but the last time I was there I overheard one of the guys telling a customer that a fixed stock made any given AR a cash & carry (after NICS) rifle.

It's all about the barrel, this is what MSP has told the licensed dealers. As such most LWRC rifles are HBAR configuration....

 

[smores]

I guess the new question is, can we re-upper a post-MOM HBAR, to a non HBAR/flash hider/"banned format" and still be within the law.

I doubt it.

However, like 922(r) I believe this will be one of those things that forum junkies and other well-informed gun owners will abide by, while everyone else will be completely ignorant of it and just configure their guns in any way they want. And like 922(r) it will be difficult to enforce, if it's enforced at all.

I've never seen someone get questioned on where they got their 30-round mags at a MD range, EVER.

The real question is: if you built a non-compliant rifle after the ban, and are shooting at a private range, would anyone notice or even care, let alone report it to the police?

 

[Gbh]

Why are you doing this? The stock on an ar is modular. Period. It is not part of the gun. Can I cash and carry a used hbar with a missing stock? If not why not? Can I cash and carry and hbar or lower without a barrel at all ?
hum?

This thread is a discussion of what makes a HBAR a HBAR. It's the same public discussion that's been going on for years. I really doubt talking about it now is somehow jeopardizing our position. Sorry if it interferes with the Brooklyn 2334692 Method of restoring our rights.

People are asking about HBAR's so GOING FORWARD they can understand what they can and should not do. There's allot of disagreement on what constitutes a HBAR among buyers and FFL's. Sorry to have an opinion.

For the love of god they do not need our help. And if they do change the interpretation for the same statutory language we will have a ready made court challenge.

Sorry to let the "fixed stock, 20" heavy barrel" cat out of the bag.

And it makes nor difference why it is exempt, only that the law as written makes it so.

Yes it does make a difference as demonstrated by the title of this thread. People are trying to clarify HBAR's and I am suggesting that the history of the law my give a clue as what to look for if declaring something a HBAR. I no more want to see someone wait 60 days to get their legitimate HBAR as I want someone to get in trouble for cobbling together something that they think is a HBAR and having problems later.

The part of the gun that makes it an hbar is the barrel. Try an cash and carry a fixed stock AR with a tappered barrel if you do nor believe me.

My earlier post about the fixed stock should have been clearer, I believe the combination of the fixed stock / heavy barrel and overall length in the sporter package is cumulatively what makes it a HBAR. Not JUST the barrel. Apparently, you disagree. I can live with that.

Please Please Please oay attention to the real fight we have ahead of us....

Please.

Don't assume I'm not. I'm a multi-tasker.

Allot of the public discussions will be looking ahead towards Oct. 1 and what owners and buyers should do, like, "what makes a HBAR a HBAR?" (a recycled question from the past).

 

[Merlin]

Look at the Colt AR6721. It's sold by Colt with a heavy barrel and is listed in their catalogs as a heavy barrel. The reciever is only marked AR6721 and the barrel is marked HBAR. So what is it?

An HBAR stop asking questions...LOL you may not like the answer. Just think HBAR.

 

[Merlin]

This thread is a discussion of what makes a HBAR a HBAR. It's the same public discussion that's been going on for years. I really doubt talking about it now is somehow jeopardizing our position. Sorry if it interferes with the Brooklyn 2334692 Method of restoring our rights.

People are asking about HBAR's so GOING FORWARD they can understand what they can and should not do. There's allot of disagreement on what constitutes a HBAR among buyers and FFL's. Sorry to have an opinion.



Sorry to let the "fixed stock, 20" heavy barrel" cat out of the bag.



Yes it does make a difference as demonstrated by the title of this thread. People are trying to clarify HBAR's and I am suggesting that the history of the law my give a clue as what to look for if declaring something a HBAR. I no more want to see someone wait 60 days to get their legitimate HBAR as I want someone to get in trouble for cobbling together something that they think is a HBAR and having problems later.



My earlier post about the fixed stock should have been clearer, I believe the combination of the fixed stock / heavy barrel and overall length in the sporter package is cumulatively what makes it a HBAR. Not JUST the barrel. Apparently, you disagree. I can live with that.




Don't assume I'm not. I'm a multi-tasker.

Allot of the public discussions will be looking ahead towards Oct. 1 and what owners and buyers should do, like, "what makes a HBAR a HBAR?" (a recycled question from the past).

When some thing get to clear the pro-gun person comes out loosing.

 

[Kingjamez]

Given that old MSP bulletin on copies of guns, I tend to agree with GBH. The original intent when the law was made and the further interpretation by MSP makes a good argument. I don't think it's silly to say that in the AW list HBAR denotes a model, not necessarily an acronym. So my current, fluid, ever changing opinion is that copies of the MODEL HBAR (including the features it does or doesn't have) are not banned.

That said, I think the way it's currently interpreted by MSP may be different and only considers the acronym.

-Jim

 

[Brooklyn]

This thread is a discussion of what makes a HBAR a HBAR. It's the same public discussion that's been going on for years. I really doubt talking about it now is somehow jeopardizing our position. Sorry if it interferes with the Brooklyn 2334692 Method of restoring our rights.

People are asking about HBAR's so GOING FORWARD they can understand what they can and should not do. There's allot of disagreement on what constitutes a HBAR among buyers and FFL's. Sorry to have an opinion.



Sorry to let the "fixed stock, 20" heavy barrel" cat out of the bag.



Yes it does make a difference as demonstrated by the title of this thread. People are trying to clarify HBAR's and I am suggesting that the history of the law my give a clue as what to look for if declaring something a HBAR. I no more want to see someone wait 60 days to get their legitimate HBAR as I want someone to get in trouble for cobbling together something that they think is a HBAR and having problems later.



My earlier post about the fixed stock should have been clearer, I believe the combination of the fixed stock / heavy barrel and overall length in the sporter package is cumulatively what makes it a HBAR. Not JUST the barrel. Apparently, you disagree. I can live with that.




Don't assume I'm not. I'm a multi-tasker.

Allot of the public discussions will be looking ahead towards Oct. 1 and what owners and buyers should do, like, "what makes a HBAR a HBAR?" (a recycled question from the past).

What makes it an hbar for Maryland law is the msp memo.
If that interpretation is not what the mga had in mind then they have had many chances to clarify. They have not.

It could be that they do not know about all the confusion and posiblities. I doubt I am alone in thinking that is a good thing

Now if this law is not tossed by the court I can promise that this thread will be used to help with the next one. It matters not that they might not care, or that they could figure it out for themselves. What matters is by introducing doubt on the msp statement you are in fact creating legal problems for those who will rely on it in good faith.

Making other configurations is not good faith in any case.

We have every reason to think that the msp ruling is valid , that it was made in good faith and that we can , have and will continue to rely on it good faith. If and when it changes we will need to revisit. Until then keep the barrell. Do not change uppers. Keep it in as close to as purchased condition as possible.

We do this in good faith reliance on the expert opinion of the msp.

 

[SKIP]

I purchased my Hbar when you could walk out the store the same day. Would the trigger group and the receiver have anything to do with the question at hand? I recall when Colt made modifications so a drop in sear could not be installed. $.02

 

[IMBLITZVT]

See, there is where if Colt had any business sense, they would post ban start pumping out AR15 receivers marked Colt AR15 Sporter HBAR and they could corner the market...

I think this is something that someone needs to write to the Attorney General about. Normally I think its better not to ask and if you do its very important to word it correctly, ie in this case stating as fact that Copies are legal but asking what constitutes a copy... Why? Well MSP can make up what they like and not really worry about being overturned in court. For the Attorney General, he has a vested interest in making sure whatever he puts out will be upheld in court.

 

[Caladain]

See, there is where if Colt had any business sense, they would post ban start pumping out AR15 receivers marked Colt AR15 Sporter HBAR and they could corner the market...

I think this is something that someone needs to write to the Attorney General about. Normally I think its better not to ask and if you do its very important to word it correctly, ie in this case stating as fact that Copies are legal but asking what constitutes a copy... Why? Well MSP can make up what they like and not really worry about being overturned in court. For the Attorney General, he has a vested interest in making sure whatever he puts out will be upheld in court.

I'd like to get something from MSI. Let MSI work with the parties involved and provide some guidance.

My Views: The lower is the firearm. Once purchased (to be safe, as a complete HBAR rifle), I *do not* see anywhere where in the law where swapping a regular upper onto the HBAR lower would break the law. The lower is within your possession as an HBAR Rifle. It's an HBAR if it's sans upper, or stripped to just a receiver, or with a 5.7 upper put on it. It can't change it's designation on the forms depending on what upper you have on it..otherwise *anytime* you swapped uppers in MD you'd be manufacturing a firearm.

You'd probably want to keep clear of the copycat tests as well.

 

[Brooklyn]

I'd like to get something from MSI. Let MSI work with the parties involved and provide some guidance.

My Views: The lower is the firearm. Once purchased (to be safe, as a complete HBAR rifle), I *do not* see anywhere where in the law where swapping a regular upper onto the HBAR lower would break the law. The lower is within your possession as an HBAR Rifle. It's an HBAR if it's sans upper, or stripped to just a receiver, or with a 5.7 upper put on it. It can't change it's designation on the forms depending on what upper you have on it..otherwise *anytime* you swapped uppers in MD you'd be manufacturing a firearm.

You'd probably want to keep clear of the copycat tests as well.

Here I think this is to broad. You have an in Md terms a non regulated lower. It is not even clear if you can remove the upper let alone replace it with one that is not hbar. Caliber I think would not be relevant but it would need to be an hbar upper. You would need to make the case enough to introduce reasonable doubt.

Now under federal law you would be right, and if you moved out of state you could do what you will, but in marry land a non bar upper Donna non registered ( time we called it what it is) lower would be an issue.

This is only a Maryland issue, if you were out of state when you swapped uppers, then swapped them back before you go home from the range ( out of state range ) you would be fine.

Remember than all unmated lowers are sold as regulated there is reason for that.Personally I think its all stupid, but compliance is not that hard. Try not to be a test case. .


If you put an hbar on a resistered lower it does not make it cash and carry however. It is regulated until deregulated by I think an ffl

And frankly that may be a good reason for an ffl to treat any used gun as regulated because once regulated it stays regulated unless work is done ( I don't even know what is needed or if you need a manufacturing licence or not)

So for used guns that may have been mated with a hbar upper I really can understand the caution.