open carry airsoft?

[mudskipper]

Oh yeah I'm def with Rob B and Urban warrior...if someone chooses to carry an airsoft weapon like it's real then if I'm on the street or get a call for said person, no way in hell am I even going to hesitate for a second when it comes to protecting myself or another's life from what I perceive as a threat.

Orange tips mean nothing....Ive seen pink AR-15's and lime green Glocks during my tours of duty.

This mindset exactly illustrates why LEO's often find themselves at odds, litterally and figuratively, with gun folks.

You're basically saying "anyone I see that's not a cop but has a gun is therefore a threat to me and needs to be dealt with". Doesn't matter what they're doing, if they have a gun on them, they must be the enemy.

I don't care WHAT you meant to say, that is the ACTUAL meaning of what you just said to people like me/us.

It's so ingrained in you that you don't even realize how that sounds to us.


To us, it sounds like this:

"I'm a cop, and as such, I'm the only one around here that should have a gun. If someone else does, then they're placing themselves in serious jeopardy simply by being around me, because I won't hesitate to __________ if I feel I need to".


This mindset illustrated here is why a lot of gun owners are - at best - only lukewarm supporters of police. If you stopped reagrding everyone who ISN'T a cop as a crimminal, you guys might get a warmer reception.

 

[wilcam47]

you know cops have enough to worry about with out carrying fakes or pellet pistol looking guns...i wouldnt blame them one bit if they shot someone for pointing one of these at them...

 

[mudskipper]

Pointing is one thing. Merely "having" one on your person without implied or directed "threat" is something else, and that's what we're dicussing here.

It's the metality of "I'm a cop, and I'M the only one that should have a gun".

 

[shawn]

I am sure there are local ordinances or laws against the open carrying of a loaded long rifle in a public place, not to mention the law of common sense. Lets get it straight also, I have an extensive airsoft collection and a budding real gun collection and I am in no way against a persons right to own firearms, however, I take offense to people doing stupid things to jeopardize everyones right to own firearms, mine included.

I though there was state preemption laws that make those local ordinances null and void?????

And I am sorry......."Law of common sense"?????????

If it is LEGAL to open carry a loaded rifle then there should be no problem with it.

whether it is common sense to do so is not something for the police to decide.

If it makes sense to you and is legal then do so.

While you may think it is ridiculous, someone else may think its a good safety measure just like seatbelts.

 

[novus collectus]

I am sure there are local ordinances or laws against the open carrying of a loaded long rifle in a public place, not to mention the law of common sense. Lets get it straight also, I have an extensive airsoft collection and a budding real gun collection and I am in no way against a persons right to own firearms, however, I take offense to people doing stupid things to jeopardize everyones right to own firearms, mine included.

There are such laws on the books, like in PG county there is a law against carrying a loaded rifle within something like 100 or 1000 feet of a building, but there is a state preemption on firearms laws which makes all local laws like that in serious doubt.

 

[novus collectus]

Pointing is one thing. Merely "having" one on your person without implied or directed "threat" is something else, and that's what we're dicussing here.

It's the metality of "I'm a cop, and I'M the only one that should have a gun".

He may not have mentioned it in his post, but I think it was implied he meant he would either not hesitate to approach that person as if they were actually armed, or shoot them if they pointed the gun at him.

 

[novus collectus]

I though there was state preemption laws that make those local ordinances null and void?????

And I am sorry......."Law of common sense"?????????

If it is LEGAL to open carry a loaded rifle then there should be no problem with it.

whether it is common sense to do so is not something for the police to decide.

If it makes sense to you and is legal then do so.

While you may think it is ridiculous, someone else may think its a good safety measure just like seatbelts.

I agree.
In Virginia and Pennsylvania it is legal to carry a loaded pistol openly in public, even in the cities (Except Philladelphia which is exempted except for permit holders IIRC), and there are a lot of people doing so. Are people that do so risking everyone elses gun rights? I think not.

 

[novus collectus]

Also you have to consider that some cities, such as Baltimore, have city ordinances prohibiting the wearing and carrying of pellet, bb, air and replica weapons in public.

Just to mention I know of one case where someone was successfully charged with poss of deadly weapon for a pellet gun during an assault he committed where as the gun was not even used. But it was on his person and the person he assaulted "by threat", saw it on him and believed it to be real thus making the threat against him legit in his mind.

Now of course by the time it got to court approx 6 mos later it was dropped to a lesser charge but the initial charge caused the suspect a high bail which he could not afford and thus spent those 6 months in Central Booking.

The deadly weapon statute does not specifically define "dangerous weapon" (although it does define "weapon") and it does say one cannot carry concealed a "dangerous weapon" of any kind.

(c) (1) A person may not wear or carry a dangerous weapon of any kind concealed on or about the person.

Also, wearing one openly with the intent to unlawfully injure is what he may have been charged with too.

(2) A person may not wear or carry a dangerous weapon, chemical mace, pepper mace, or a tear gas device openly with the intent or purpose of injuring an individual in an unlawful manner.

So if he had a pellet gun or a hammer, the charge should have been the same either way whether he used it or not.
If he wore it openly and was not involved in assault, then the dangerous weapon statute would not apply.

I am not a lawyer, and this is just how I read it.

 

[fivepointstar]

I've been watching this thread and seeing where this goes. Outside of an armed robbery or a 1st Degree Assault (Assault involving a weapon or firearm) I'd say 95% of calls involving a firearm are generated by the public. Perhaps the other 5% are generate by field interviews and traffic stops which in the interest of public safety should be investigated further. If its determined that they have a CCW or carrying for any other lawful purpose (range, hunting, firearm purchase, gunsmithing etc) they should be sent on their way with no futher unreasonable delay.

Basically (the 95% of gun calls) you have citizens calling your 911 center calling in saying that they see a "man with a gun" walking down the street or generating a hunting complaint. Of course these call for service, either legitimate or not, require I higher level of officer safety. If its a hunting complaint then it require verification of permission to hunt. If its an airsoft, expect the lecture about it looking real and perhaps a call to the parent if its a juvenile.

Just putting things into perspective....police officers are human too, they have their own political views, they are Democrats and Republicans, pro Choice and Pro Life, and they are Pro Gun Control and Pro 2A. I'm sure you find LEO on this Forum that are Pro Shall Issue but expect to find those one our streets that are not.

Please don't generalize and feel that all LEO are in the same category as the Obama's, Nancy Pelosi's and Diane Feinsteins who are the true socialists.

 

[alucard0822]

I agree.
In Virginia and Pennsylvania it is legal to carry a loaded pistol openly in public, even in the cities (Except Philladelphia which is exempted except for permit holders IIRC), and there are a lot of people doing so. Are people that do so risking everyone elses gun rights? I think not.

In the more rural areas of southern PA, Open carry is accepted and widespread, You can't go to a hardware store, or market out in the sticks without seeing at least a couple folks OC in their "snake pistols". I live right on the edge of farm country, and York/Red Lion township, and occasionally OC on my property and around town, normally when doing yardwork, but conceal it most everywhere else, but even at the mall, you see the occasional OCer. For the most part, people ignore it, and in cases where police have responded, and gone above and beyond the letter of the law by detaining OCers, or revoking permits/coonfiscating weapons, they routinely get sued.

The difference here is astounding, PA has one of the highest percentages of LTCF holders in the nation (1 in 21), and information pamplets from the police, PAFOA, and NRA are widespread letting citizens know what their rights are, there is also a strong state constitutional RKBA clause, and an enforced state pre-emption clause to keep localities from enacting their own anti-gun legislation.

Coming from MD just a couple months ago, it has been a real eye opener on how things should be, The second time I Open carried in the yard (for all of about a minute), a police car pulled up, an officer got out and after I damn near crapped myself, officer Mike told me he wanted to stop by and say hi to the "new folks that bought the Joyce place", and after seeing my 686 on my hip, invited me to the private club he shoots at down the street, and we basically made small talk for about 20 minutes. All the locals shoot, and about 1/2 the town open carries regularly, including the officers who live here, and not surprisingly, there has never been a violent crime in years.

 

[S1gnal]

This mindset exactly illustrates why LEO's often find themselves at odds, litterally and figuratively, with gun folks.

You're basically saying "anyone I see that's not a cop but has a gun is therefore a threat to me and needs to be dealt with". Doesn't matter what they're doing, if they have a gun on them, they must be the enemy.

I don't care WHAT you meant to say, that is the ACTUAL meaning of what you just said to people like me/us.

It's so ingrained in you that you don't even realize how that sounds to us.

To us, it sounds like this:

"I'm a cop, and as such, I'm the only one around here that should have a gun. If someone else does, then they're placing themselves in serious jeopardy simply by being around me, because I won't hesitate to __________ if I feel I need to".


This mindset illustrated here is why a lot of gun owners are - at best - only lukewarm supporters of police. If you stopped reagrding everyone who ISN'T a cop as a crimminal, you guys might get a warmer reception.

Mudskipper,

Wow brother if thats what you got out of that, I dont know what to tell you.


First let me explain to you that when it comes to the 2nd amendment that if I didn't believe in it I wouldn't be a member of this forum nor a cop when I think about it.

If i believe that everyone who is not a cop is a criminal, then who am I swearing to protect?
Now let me explain where I work. Baltimore City, which was at one time according to some polls one of the most violent and dangerous places to live.

On a side not the majority of persons who would be carrying weapons on their person where I work are either LEO ( to include bondsmen, private security, etc..), or citizens with valid CCW's (how many are those). As such two things are understood, they have been trained in concealing their weapon so most people would not see it, to cause them to call 911, and somewhere on their person there is badge or other credentials just as visible as the sidearm.

So my train of thought is not, I'm a cop and therefore the only one who should have a gun but...if I see the gun I better see a badge or credentials, or yes like the one poster mentioned of the story at 7-11 you'll find yourself in a very hard way.

Now let me explain what I did for the past 7 yrs..Shooting Investigations. Ive had victims of all kinds, mothers, 6 yr old children, everyday guys on bus stops going to work, and yes your everyday thug.

Have I been shot at..yes.
Have I had friends who were fellow officers hurt..yes. In the past five years Ive lost 3. The last wasn't even on duty, he was just going home when a POS tied to rob him,and ended up taking his life.

I'm sorry but I stand behind my statement..which was, " ...if I'm on the street or get a call for said person, no way in hell am I even going to hesitate for a second when it comes to protecting myself or another's life from what I perceive as a threat"

Threat: meaning someone's life or safety is in jepordy.

ex: if you're LEO and worked in a gun friendly place such as Texas, you know the law allows for the chance of you seeing a weapon holstered on someone's side

However, on the opposite end of that spectrum, if you're LEO in Baltimore City on West or east Baltimore Street and you see the butt of a gun sticking out of someone's waist band and theres no badge to go with it..uhhhmmm yeah..there's a problem.

So if you lived in my city and had a burglar who was armed with what looked like a.40cal tucked in his dip or yes even holstered, enter your house while you and you're family were home and i got the call and arrived on scene to find him approaching your loved one would you want me to

a.) treat him like that weapon is real and respond accordingly. Even if that means drawing my own weapon against him. And if I can determine the weapon is not real,,, at least I have the opportunity to de-escalate.

b.) stop...wait, contemplate if the weapon is real or not. Think about if its just a kid with a pellet gun or kid with his dad's .38 (remember he's already in your house, and you obviously think there's a threat which is why you called 911)
Only this time if I'm wrong, hope to god Dad never taught him to shoot.

See you automatically assumed that when I said protecting my life or another person's life that meant to instantly shoot, which is does not always lead to that. I'm not a cowboy or Merc.
But it does mean that I do not have to progress through a continuum. (meaning i don't have to go from verbal, to baton, to mace, to taser. I am justified to immediately draw my firearm) A lot of times that is enough to get someones attention and their compliance with out further escalation.

But just like I would never fault you for doing whatever you felt is necessary to protect yourself or your family if you felt threatened, understand I have that duty x 1,000,000.

I don't have the option of standing by cowardly doing nothing
I don't have instant replay
Hesitating may get you or I hurt or killed
and no matter what, I'll be scrutinized for my actions
..and still I choose to do my job and protect everyday without fear

I understand you're point as a law abiding citizen and I would never impose on your rights as such.
Try to understand my point as one who puts his life on the line to make sure you're safe to enjoy those rights.

 

[S1gnal]

And Novus,

I agree with you 100% but the Court system and it's juries in Baltimore are a peculiar animal that even until this day amazes me.
The best I can offer is that the ASA probably felt the chance were better of a conviction on the lesser charge..ie Plea,no court trial. Then you have the point it's hard to get a cop killer convicted in this city...try having to convince a jury that even though the weapon was fake it's still a serious matter.

But still we fight the good fight

 

[novus collectus]

... or citizens with valid CCW's (how many are those). ...

http://www.marylandshallissue.org/ccwdata.html

ex: if you're LEO and worked in a gun friendly place such as Texas, you know the law allows for the chance of you seeing a weapon holstered on someone's side

Just for information's sake, open carry in Texas is illegal and if a cop can see part of your gun I think you can possibly lose your permit from what I gather.

 

[smores]

why not just carry one of these?

http://www.rap4.com/paintball/os/markers-pistol-rap226-c-21_158_301.html

I hate you. I want these.

 

[S1gnal]

Information noted, Thanks Novus.

Even still there are a great number of CCWs in that state, LEO is aware of that thus it maybe more common for them to see a legally armed civilian if even by mistake on part of the civilian, than say in Baltimore where there are significantly less.
So again its not that LEO think we are the only ones allowed to be armed its just common thought of LEO in Baltimore, if there is a gun there should be a "Badge" or other
credentials readily available if not, there's a problem.

Keep in mind this thread has been discussed over a period of days,,,where as an officer gets to contemplate this for split seconds.

I commonly make a habit of attaching my badge on my strong side right near my holster. So if by chance my weapon is exposed and you see it, you also see the badge right next to it.
Because I know that if another officer sees it and doesn't see a badge I'm going to be treated as threat..and proned out on the ground at gunpoint until the situation is safe. The same would go for an individual walking around with an airsoft weapon on his hip.
I know it doesn't sound PC but this is the world we live in now days.

 

[urbanwarrior]

Very well put S1gnal. I too am Baltimore City LEO, and lets face it, the armed person calls don't come from Canton or Guilford or places like that, they come form the worst areas of the city where there are commonly seen instances of violent crime, i.e. shootings/homicides, armed robberies etc. So when we respond to these areas for these calls we already have a heightened sense of awareness, because there is a lot of violent crime that happens there and we have to be ready for whatever presents itself to us. There aren't very many if any persons in these crime ridden areas that have any form of legit reason to be carrying a gun. The policy of lets give them a hug and tell them it will be ok doesn't work anymore. In 13 years I have encountered as many people that I can count on one hand that actually had carry permits, that I didn't already know as off duty or plain clothes police or bail bondsman etc. Those odds are stacked way against me and I have quite a few people that count on me to make the right yet very quick judgement call everyday. In Baltimore City we seize some astronimcal number of illegal guns each year. In 2003 I was in a unit called F.A.S.T. (Firearm Apprehension Strike Team), we (30 police) seized 379 guns from the street of that fine city. Thats more than 1 a day.
Mudskipper, I too wouldn't be a part of this forum or community if I thought everyone that had a gun had to be police. I have reread the entire thread and have no idea how you arrived at that conclusion. I strongly believe in the 2nd amendment and I also believe in being a responsible gun owner. Carrying a gun in this state is strictly regulated, if you carry, concealed or not, you will be challenged and if you don't have a concealed carry permit then you will be arrested...period. And even if you do have a concealed carry permit, you are required to abide by the concealed carry laws. So if you walk down the street with a pistol displayed expect to have the police called, even if your shirt rode up and accidentally exposed the gun.

 

[novus collectus]

Very well put S1gnal. I too am Baltimore City LEO, and lets face it, the armed person calls don't come from Canton or Guilford or places like that, they come form the worst areas of the city where there are commonly seen instances of violent crime, i.e. shootings/homicides, armed robberies etc. So when we respond to these areas for these calls we already have a heightened sense of awareness, because there is a lot of violent crime that happens there and we have to be ready for whatever presents itself to us. There aren't very many if any persons in these crime ridden areas that have any form of legit reason to be carrying a gun. The policy of lets give them a hug and tell them it will be ok doesn't work anymore. In 13 years I have encountered as many people that I can count on one hand that actually had carry permits, that I didn't already know as off duty or plain clothes police or bail bondsman etc. Those odds are stacked way against me and I have quite a few people that count on me to make the right yet very quick judgement call everyday. In Baltimore City we seize some astronimcal number of illegal guns each year. In 2003 I was in a unit called F.A.S.T. (Firearm Apprehension Strike Team), we (30 police) seized 379 guns from the street of that fine city. Thats more than 1 a day.
Mudskipper, I too wouldn't be a part of this forum or community if I thought everyone that had a gun had to be police. I have reread the entire thread and have no idea how you arrived at that conclusion. I strongly believe in the 2nd amendment and I also believe in being a responsible gun owner. Carrying a gun in this state is strictly regulated, if you carry, concealed or not, you will be challenged and if you don't have a concealed carry permit then you will be arrested...period. And even if you do have a concealed carry permit, you are required to abide by the concealed carry laws. So if you walk down the street with a pistol displayed expect to have the police called, even if your shirt rode up and accidentally exposed the gun.

I am not challenging your post, but I am pointing this out for information purposes only.
MD is a licensed open carry state from what I understand. Otherwise armored car guards would be breaking the law and I think they have the exact same permit to carry a handgun.

Another thing of note. I see absolutely no state law against the open carry of an "antique" or functioning replica of one in MD (concealed is confusing and might be legal) . While I understand the police being called if even an antique is exposed, one wonders what the police reaction would be if it was VERY common for law abiding citizens to carry an antique handgun openly.

 

[fivepointstar]

I am not challenging your post, but I am pointing this out for information purposes only.
MD is a licensed open carry state from what I understand. Otherwise armored car guards would be breaking the law and I think they have the exact same permit to carry a handgun.

Another thing of note. I see absolutely no state law against the open carry of an "antique" or functioning replica of one in MD (concealed is confusing and might be legal) . While I understand the police being called if even an antique is exposed, one wonders what the police reaction would be if it was VERY common for law abiding citizens to carry an antique handgun openly.

Novus...I too am not challenging you because you're a wealth of information. A colleague that I work with, her husband works for an armoured car service and we had this conversation. His permit only allows him to carry on duty and to and from work and while in uniform. I would think he would have to apply for an additional permit if he wanted to CCW.

Huh....you really got me thinking when it comes to Antiques. I enjoy the challenge.

"An antique firearm, defined as one manufactured on or before 1898, or any replica thereof which is not designed for firing fixed ammunition or which uses fixed ammunition no longer manufactured in the United States and no longer readily available commercially, is exempted from state law."

http://www.nraila.org/statelawpdfs/MDSL.pdf

I would concur on your statement regarding "antique" firearms and open carry. This appears to be a loophole!! Open carry and no permit required. I would figure that the only exception would be theatrical display but I stand corrected.

 

[Dst]

I think it's a fair observation that even if it doesn't apply to anyone here, a significant proportion of LEOs will, due to their ignorance of the law, detain or even arrest an individual who is legally carrying a firearm. At the very least, that does still seem to be a conclusion that you can draw from this conversation.

Conclusion-jumping aside, it's certainly a valid fear that openly carrying a firearm is an invitation to police to see some paperwork, and that fear has been reinforced, in my opinion, by some of the folks posting here. I don't have much of a point beyond "That scares me", but frankly...I'm not a LEO, I've never been shot at and neither have any of my friends, and I don't know what the pressures are in that environment. I simply don't want a police officer drawing a weapon against me and furthering the anti argument by coming to the same conclusion that they would: I have a gun and thus I am dangerous. Again, though, I recognize my own idealism and the fact that in our society most people who openly display firearms do so for less than noble purposes.

I'm not sure what my point is, but generally this thread is not making me feel good about being a law-abiding citizen who openly carries a firearm. I don't like that.

 

[shawn]

Very well put S1gnal. I too am Baltimore City LEO, and lets face it, the armed person calls don't come from Canton or Guilford or places like that, they come form the worst areas of the city where there are commonly seen instances of violent crime, i.e. shootings/homicides, armed robberies etc. So when we respond to these areas for these calls we already have a heightened sense of awareness, because there is a lot of violent crime that happens there and we have to be ready for whatever presents itself to us. There aren't very many if any persons in these crime ridden areas that have any form of legit reason to be carrying a gun. The policy of lets give them a hug and tell them it will be ok doesn't work anymore. In 13 years I have encountered as many people that I can count on one hand that actually had carry permits, that I didn't already know as off duty or plain clothes police or bail bondsman etc. Those odds are stacked way against me and I have quite a few people that count on me to make the right yet very quick judgement call everyday. In Baltimore City we seize some astronimcal number of illegal guns each year. In 2003 I was in a unit called F.A.S.T. (Firearm Apprehension Strike Team), we (30 police) seized 379 guns from the street of that fine city. Thats more than 1 a day.
Mudskipper, I too wouldn't be a part of this forum or community if I thought everyone that had a gun had to be police. I have reread the entire thread and have no idea how you arrived at that conclusion. I strongly believe in the 2nd amendment and I also believe in being a responsible gun owner. Carrying a gun in this state is strictly regulated, if you carry, concealed or not, you will be challenged and if you don't have a concealed carry permit then you will be arrested...period. And even if you do have a concealed carry permit, you are required to abide by the concealed carry laws. So if you walk down the street with a pistol displayed expect to have the police called, even if your shirt rode up and accidentally exposed the gun.

I personally do not think it is a big deal to have the police called on you if people see your gun. (especially in a gun unfriendly state such as this)

BUT it is how they treat you when they show up that is the big deal.

If you walk up to me and say...."excuse me......someone called and said they saw you with a gun.......do you have a carry permit?.........."Sure officer....its right here.....let me get it for you".....officer says "ok it looks good.......have a nice day"


That is the type of encounter it should be



the type of encounter that it will PORBABLY be is......


police walk up to you "let me see your hands"........."get on the ground".........and as I am lying facedown on the pavement while being frisked they say......"oh ok you do have a permit"........"you can go".........


that is the tyoe of encounter it shouldnt be