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View Full Version : mono gas ring!?


Howe
January 2nd, 2015, 09:55 PM
I am not even sure if its called mono gas ring, its a single, but continuous gas ring, almost like a key ring that loops around 3 times. This is quite different from the traditional 3 rings.....

A sale associate of Precision Firearms mentioned this design avoid the misalignment of the traditional 3 rings system... Wondering if there is any pro and con about this mono gas ring.

Need your thoughts.

Thanks!!

http://i1252.photobucket.com/albums/hh563/howe12/image1_zps1c389cc9.jpg

outrider58
January 2nd, 2015, 10:05 PM
I've heard of these but, first time seeing one. Interested in results. I just wonder how well it will seal being all on the same alignment.

BradMacc82
January 2nd, 2015, 10:05 PM
MacFarland gas-ring setup, supposedly better suited for F/A and suppressor duty.

Have a few bcg's with that setup (came that way from maker), haven't noticed any difference from a standard 3-ring setup.

outrider58
January 2nd, 2015, 10:25 PM
MacFarland gas-ring setup, supposedly better suited for F/A and suppressor duty.

Have a few bcg's with that setup (came that way from maker), haven't noticed any difference from a standard 3-ring setup.

Sounds like a good thing, then.

Jasonshooter
January 2nd, 2015, 10:50 PM
I've had a standard gas ring get torn up , I replaced it with this McFarland single ring , grated that I haven't put thousands of rounds through the rifle , but so far so good ...it's not to pricey , give it a try ....

DaemonAssassin
January 2nd, 2015, 10:53 PM
It is supposed to prevent gas leakage, because there are no slots that can line up to allow the gas to flow through. It is good for FA, suppressed, bump fire, high rate of semi auto fire, and just to not have to worry about playing with your gas rings during the cleaning cycle.

Howe
January 2nd, 2015, 10:53 PM
good to know.. got it for 2 bucks!

outrider58
January 2nd, 2015, 11:53 PM
Will give it a whirl on my current build, 14.5'' suppressed.:thumbsup:

madmantrapper
January 4th, 2015, 09:17 AM
I believe these are called spiral rings, seen them years ago for holding piston pins in some engine.

jrumann59
January 5th, 2015, 11:16 AM
It is supposed to prevent gas leakage, because there are no slots that can line up to allow the gas to flow through. It is good for FA, suppressed, bump fire, high rate of semi auto fire, and just to not have to worry about playing with your gas rings during the cleaning cycle.

Except that the normal gas rings do not have a gap when the bolt is installed. I could be wrong but the whole gas ring gaps being staggered is a myth.

lsw
January 5th, 2015, 12:27 PM
Except that the normal gas rings do not have a gap when the bolt is installed. I could be wrong but the whole gas ring gaps being staggered is a myth.

I have read the same and while I've never tried it, I've seen more than one article state that an AR will function with only ONE gas ring working.

I've wondered why ARs were ever even designed to use these rings. Piston-operated gas systems don't need any kind of sealing ring, and the AR doesn't use any special type of seal where the gas tube enters the gas key. So why couldn't Stoner have just designed the bolt & carrier without the need for sealing rings?

jrumann59
January 5th, 2015, 01:40 PM
I have read the same and while I've never tried it, I've seen more than one article state that an AR will function with only ONE gas ring working.

I've wondered why ARs were ever even designed to use these rings. Piston-operated gas systems don't need any kind of sealing ring, and the AR doesn't use any special type of seal where the gas tube enters the gas key. So why couldn't Stoner have just designed the bolt & carrier without the need for sealing rings?

the bolt is the last area acted upon in the system so you need the most gas velocity to cycle, no rings and gases just leak around the bolt.

rpker
January 5th, 2015, 01:54 PM
I'd like to see what clandestine has to say about it but it sounds like it would be a good investment for my ar with a bump fire stock

clandestine
January 5th, 2015, 07:12 PM
Except that the normal gas rings do not have a gap when the bolt is installed. I could be wrong but the whole gas ring gaps being staggered is a myth.

You are correct. Staggering is not needed and an AR will run on one gas ring.

I have read the same and while I've never tried it, I've seen more than one article state that an AR will function with only ONE gas ring working.

I've wondered why ARs were ever even designed to use these rings. Piston-operated gas systems don't need any kind of sealing ring, and the AR doesn't use any special type of seal where the gas tube enters the gas key. So why couldn't Stoner have just designed the bolt & carrier without the need for sealing rings?

Without the rings it will bleed more fouling into the action. The rings not only seal the expansion chamber until the vent ports bleed gas and allow unlocking, but also clean fouling as they operate. The AR system will get carbon buildup in the bolt assembly but it self limits in the critical areas.

Standard piston guns can vent gas without concern for where it goes, the D.I.AR15 is essentially an internal gas piston thus requires controlled venting.

I'd like to see what clandestine has to say about it but it sounds like it would be a good investment for my ar with a bump fire stock

One piece rings are hype and junk IMO. Just another gadget to part people from their money. Just use standard Gas Rings. There is no weakness in the design.

In my experience these rings are often applied because something in the build is wrong. If your gunsmith says your gun needs these to run then find a new smith. These one piece rings also wear faster than standard split rings because they can't expand and constrict as easy.

The McFarland gas rings are part of the MK18 package but I guess they get better ones than the ones I deal with.

outrider58
January 5th, 2015, 07:24 PM
JPEnt. sells them for .223 and 308 $10

rpker
January 6th, 2015, 09:29 AM
One piece rings are hype and junk IMO. Just another gadget to part people from their money. Just use standard Gas Rings. There is no weakness in the design.

In my experience these rings are often applied because something in the build is wrong. If your gunsmith says your gun needs these to run then find a new smith. These one piece rings also wear faster than standard split rings because they can't expand and constrict as easy.

I am fairly decent at doing my own smithing with my dremel (...I kid....I kid...:innocent0). honestly I haven't yet had a need of a gunsmith but if I do I will be looking you up chad.

clandestine
January 6th, 2015, 12:56 PM
I am fairly decent at doing my own smithing with my dremel (...I kid....I kid...:innocent0). honestly I haven't yet had a need of a gunsmith but if I do I will be looking you up chad.

Thanks for the kind words my friend :)

DaemonAssassin
January 6th, 2015, 09:35 PM
I am fairly decent at doing my own smithing with my dremel (...I kid....I kid...:innocent0). honestly I haven't yet had a need of a gunsmith but if I do I will be looking you up chad.

He is good at what he does and he knows his stuff. He even said he would shoot a 40 to try to troubleshoot somebody's gun. I know how much pain that caused him to say that. Especially after the Hi-Point 40 cal episode at The Gun Shop last year. :lol2:

clandestine
January 6th, 2015, 09:44 PM
He is good at what he does and he knows his stuff. He even said he would shoot a 40 to try to troubleshoot somebody's gun. I know how much pain that caused him to say that. Especially after the Hi-Point 40 cal episode at The Gun Shop last year. :lol2:

You shut yo mouf! ;)

DaemonAssassin
January 6th, 2015, 10:10 PM
You shut yo mouf! ;)

:lol::lol::lol::lol:

jrumann59
January 7th, 2015, 09:42 AM
In my experience these rings are often applied because something in the build is wrong. If your gunsmith says your gun needs these to run then find a new smith. These one piece rings also wear faster than standard split rings because they can't expand and constrict as easy.



Chad couldn't that cause an issue if you switch back to standard rings if the mono ring does not constrict as easy could it not cause wear in the BC especially once carbon is introduced

clandestine
January 7th, 2015, 10:19 AM
Chad couldn't that cause an issue if you switch back to standard rings if the mono ring does not constrict as easy could it not cause wear in the BC especially once carbon is introduced

That's possible but I have not observed it myself. I now have the pin gauges to measure that so if its happening, I'll be able to measure it in the future.

I believe that even the MK18 dropped the 1 piece gas ring due to problems with them.

BradMacc82
January 7th, 2015, 12:29 PM
Especially after the Hi-Point 40 cal episode at The Gun Shop last year. :lol2:

140732



:innocent0

jrumann59
January 7th, 2015, 01:01 PM
Wait why two bananas and what looks like a prepackaged sub sammich? :innocent0

clandestine
January 7th, 2015, 02:09 PM
I have no idea who that is.

BradMacc82
January 7th, 2015, 02:27 PM
I have no idea who that is.

:D

Some of us know exactly who that is.

Magnumite
January 8th, 2015, 01:42 AM
wow....

DaemonAssassin
January 8th, 2015, 05:40 AM
:D

Some of us know exactly who that is.

Yes, yes we do... :innocent0

3paul10
January 12th, 2015, 03:58 AM
That "Staggered gas ring" concept for ARs is a bunch of bunk. Never had it happen, and Colt Amorer instructors say its bunk too... don't worry about it.

jrumann59
January 12th, 2015, 02:01 PM
That "Staggered gas ring" concept for ARs is a bunch of bunk. Never had it happen, and Colt Amorer instructors say its bunk too... don't worry about it.

Yes considering they do tend rotate on their own so no way to lock the staggering in. :D

John from MD
January 17th, 2015, 06:34 AM
"In my experience these rings are often applied because something in the build is wrong. If your gunsmith says your gun needs these to run then find a new smith. These one piece rings also wear faster than standard split rings because they can't expand and constrict as easy."

After firing thousands of rounds in numerous rifles, this is my experience as well.

John

smdub
January 17th, 2015, 09:09 AM
Not going to argue if these are better or not but wanted to correct some errors.

Mono rings can expand and contract as much as regular rings. Effectively being attached end to end does nothing to affect that. They must simply slide along their side faces to do it. Physics. They even contract MORE as there is no end bind possible and thus have a LARGER operating seal range. They are successfully used in many other similar non firearm applications.

Pin gages are worthless to measure wear down a bore. The rings do not exit the bore when cycling and thus the wear is 'inside' the bore and tapered. Very much like ring wear in pistons/cylinders of cars. You cannot insert a large pin gage past the smaller opening. You need something that will contract/expand to measure. Three leg ID mics are also poor due to the length of the anvils (though they can be ordered w custom radiused anvils. ) Diatest split ball gages will work well. Though a full set will cost *MUCH* more than a whole AR! (New prices are about that of a transferable M16.)

Gapless rings in cars have an easily measurable real world difference. Completely worn out bores can still measure negligible leakdown. They do work. The end gap never grows with wear (doesn't exist in the first place.) That wear effect is larger at higher circumference so not nearly the same in a tiny AR bolt. Though the end gap is a MUCH larger percentage of the cross section in the smaller bore though. The AR is robustly designed. As stated will run on even one ring. Gapless rings aren't necessary but likely not a disadvantage either. FWIW, I used gapless rings in my old 911 engine when I hotrodded it. Proven not to hurt. Likely helps. I'll take every tiny advantage I can get on that thing :)

clandestine
January 17th, 2015, 03:17 PM
Not going to argue if these are better or not but wanted to correct some errors.

Mono rings can expand and contract as much as regular rings. Effectively being attached end to end does nothing to affect that. They must simply slide along their side faces to do it. Physics. They even contract MORE as there is no end bind possible and thus have a LARGER operating seal range. They are successfully used in many other similar non firearm applications.

Pin gages are worthless to measure wear down a bore. The rings do not exit the bore when cycling and thus the wear is 'inside' the bore and tapered. Very much like ring wear in pistons/cylinders of cars. You cannot insert a large pin gage past the smaller opening. You need something that will contract/expand to measure. Three leg ID mics are also poor due to the length of the anvils (though they can be ordered w custom radiused anvils. ) Diatest split ball gages will work well. Though a full set will cost *MUCH* more than a whole AR! (New prices are about that of a transferable M16.)

Gapless rings in cars have an easily measurable real world difference. Completely worn out bores can still measure negligible leakdown. They do work. The end gap never grows with wear (doesn't exist in the first place.) That wear effect is larger at higher circumference so not nearly the same in a tiny AR bolt. Though the end gap is a MUCH larger percentage of the cross section in the smaller bore though. The AR is robustly designed. As stated will run on even one ring. Gapless rings aren't necessary but likely not a disadvantage either. FWIW, I used gapless rings in my old 911 engine when I hotrodded it. Proven not to hurt. Likely helps. I'll take every tiny advantage I can get on that thing :)

Sounds like textbook vs real world here.

Yes the Carrier bore is stepped but is larger at the mouth but it can be gauged. Pin gauges are a quick and dirty way to determine manufacturing issues. The U.S. military uses them to check Go and No-Go but are manufactured with large 180 degree bearing surface to check for out of round bores as well. These gauges are only applied to the Bolt and and Lower but are utilized based on wear. Mine were made to detect spmanufacturing flaws. In the past couple of years some manufacturers have made carriers with bores that are not finished cleanly that wear the rings rapidly, are out of round, or simply oversized. I know the specs from working on them and have produced a gauge to do a fast field test to better the troubleshooting process. I prefer to know where a carrier is failing (the bore) instead of replacing and staking a good set of bolts and a gas key to troubleshoot the failures. The 1 piece rings may work great in other applications but they have not shown me they are an improvement for the AR, if anything they handicap the firearm and make ring testing not possible.

The 1 prices rings for THIS application are poor at best and they don't work as well as split rings. They do wear faster from their original diameter and the standard gas ring tests can't be implemented with them which makes their operating life unpredictable. Perhjaps, the automotive ones you quote are made better but this isnt a car. They also have worn the bore in some examples I have serviced that were not chrome lined. I could see the weqr with the naked eye and my standard gauges showed discrenabke wear alomg the operating path. After a few hundred rounds many 1 piece rings will fail the AR gas ring test not from wearing the carrier bore (that's not the most common issue), but from the rings wearing rapidly. They chug along and then they stop working. Like I said before even CRANE implemented them for the MK18 but current info suggests they have stopped using them for unknown reasons. I can't say because I'm not involved in those programs, I work on civilian firearms. It could be a manufacturing issue or a real world issue but there are problems with consistency with these rings.

I know from working on the AR, what the correct carrier bore diameter is and I also know from experience the inconsistent manufacturing problems the 1 piece rings have had. I can tell you by measuring a new 1 piece ring if they will fail immediately, but service life after that is unpredictable.

I can recall a similar time where you attempted to correct me about solid vs roll pins in the FSB application as well. http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=105675&highlight=roll+pins. You were incorrect then. I'm always open to learn from those who have more experience than me, so can you tell me what you do in the firearms business or who you have worked for? I'm not talking home workshop tinkering or some other technical or engineering field. I'm talking about the AR family of weapons and firearms in general. How many ARs have you built and serviced? From my memory, just over a year ago you were building your first AR correct?

retrorichard
January 17th, 2015, 03:35 PM
I had a bicg that came with a 1 piece gas ring. I kept having issues with it until I swapped it out to the regular type.

clandestine
January 17th, 2015, 03:38 PM
I had a bicg that came with a 1 piece gas ring. I kept having issues with it until I swapped it out to the regular type.

In have seen it countless times working on customer ARs.

awptickes
January 19th, 2015, 11:24 AM
I use silicone o-rings in all of my ARs.

They never run right.

jrumann59
January 19th, 2015, 12:52 PM
I use silicone o-rings in all of my ARs.

They never run right.

You are using the silicone rings on the wrong gun. :innocent0