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Old April 5th, 2012, 07:50 AM   #1
dlmcbm
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CCW training requirement just might be here soon.

Just seen on Del. Smigiels facebook page


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Looks like we may get a bit of movement on the Shall Issue question. While letting the question run its course in the courts the State wants to have a training requirement in place for when and if the Woollard decision is finally upheld. Remembering what happened when the State allowed the State Police to interpret what a "good and substantial" reason is, I want to be sure that the State Police don't end up with the final say on what constitutes proper firearms training. I think adding a State Police "or successfully completing an NRA approved handgun or pistol firearms safety course" in order to obtain a firearms concealed carry card is the best way to go. We may see movement in the next few days, tacked onto another bill.


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Old April 5th, 2012, 08:00 AM   #2
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Training was never necessary before. I don't see why it would be necessary now.

I absolutely believe everyone should seek training but vehemently oppose state mandated training.

Also, why do NRA courses seem to always make it into these laws? I took Handgun 1 with Tom at CCJA because it the syllabus showed it to be much more indepth than NRA basic handgun. If the state does this they should accept any form of handgun training, not just the NRA courses.
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Old April 5th, 2012, 08:04 AM   #3
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Old April 5th, 2012, 08:05 AM   #4
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This is getting a little silly.

What CCW? I respect Del. Smigiel for all the work he does for our side, but.....

How about actually GETTING to a real "Shall Issue", before everyone starts discussing adding more requirements.
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Old April 5th, 2012, 08:10 AM   #5
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This is not unexpected. Maryland is one of the few states (maybe the only? I can't recall) that issues permits (albeit very, very few) with zero training requirement. They had G&S and the background check instead so they didn't need a training requirement. Keep in mind, Maryland's carry permit laws were written with the idea that very, very few people would be carrying and the state assumed that the select few would handle training on their own. It wasn't written with the idea of the general population carrying so it'll need to be re-evaluated post-Wollard.

Honestly, I'd rather prefer that there was some sort of training requirement implemented so long as it was in-line with what is common practice in other Shall Issue states. It's that last part that worries me; I envision O'Malley/Gansler/MSP & Co. coming up with a training requirement that is G&S in a different suit. It won't fly in the long run, but it'll be another battle to fight.


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Old April 5th, 2012, 08:12 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rglrguy View Post
I absolutely believe everyone should seek training but vehemently oppose state mandated training.
agreed completely.

however, if there must be state mandated training there should be a no cost training/approval option for those of us who don't have unlimited discretionary income. Something like the CMP requires for the purchase of a garand - get a police officer to sign off that you have demonstrated your skills and safe handling of firearms, for instance.
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Old April 5th, 2012, 08:18 AM   #7
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F them where they stand. No training law was needed then, not needed now. PA doesn't have training requirements, and people don't go around shooting themselves in the face.
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Old April 5th, 2012, 08:20 AM   #8
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The way I look at this is that they see "SHALL ISSUE" in the near future. That is a good thing.

I took the NRA basic pistol class right after sending in my CCW app. I took a copy of it to my interview so I hope I am one step ahead on that part.


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Old April 5th, 2012, 08:25 AM   #9
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My post to Mike's page:

A vast number of MD permits are issued to merchants who for the most part do NOT have any special training. The DD-214 should be included. There are states that require training and accept the hunter safety certificate as proof thereof. I hold six permits, one of which required live firing (Utah). That too should suffice. Finally, Maryland has issued by some estimates around 40,000 permits sans a training requirement. What the h*ll has changed that MSP now wants a training program.


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Old April 5th, 2012, 08:26 AM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Storm40 View Post
agreed completely.

however, if there must be state mandated training there should be a no cost training/approval option for those of us who don't have unlimited discretionary income. Something like the CMP requires for the purchase of a garand - get a police officer to sign off that you have demonstrated your skills and safe handling of firearms, for instance.
I don't think they are going to make the training class hard. They would be stupid to do anything besides the NRA pistol class. Makes the people get training and the state doesn't have to do anything. They don't want to have to administer a class IMHO. If they do they have to add to the budget which isn't something they want to do.
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Old April 5th, 2012, 08:36 AM   #11
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I said they would do this and I was blasted for it and was told MD didnt have the authority.


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Old April 5th, 2012, 08:37 AM   #12
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I personally don't care if they mandate SOME form of training. There are some idiots out there, who need to be shown how to handle a gun. What I would oppose is a government only class you had to take. For instance, I took a semester long marksmanship training class in college, that covered everything from safety to maintenance to firing itself. Would that not count under this law? I'm sure I got a lot more training in that class than I would have gotten in a few hour long NRA class. They need to broaden the scope beyond just an NRA class if they are to make a law.


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Old April 5th, 2012, 08:38 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmcgonig View Post
I don't think they are going to make the training class hard. They would be stupid to do anything besides the NRA pistol class. Makes the people get training and the state doesn't have to do anything. They don't want to have to administer a class IMHO. If they do they have to add to the budget which isn't something they want to do.
They can mandate an 8 hr class yearly with live fire qualification. They already do it for armed security and armored car personnel. The training is private but done by MD Police Training Comission Instructors if I remember correctly. An 8 hr class will run $125 a year. Its not funded by the State, the instructors are state certified.


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Old April 5th, 2012, 08:38 AM   #14
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Realistically I am not sure they have time to make something happen. It would require significant changes in the rules committees. It's possible - they have done more in less time in the past, but the calendar is running out.

In general I agree that leaving something in the hands of arbitrary deciders is bad. Better to get a requirement in that specifies something even normal people can meet, rather than let MSP politicians decide every day they wake up. An NRA class or veteran status is enough to not prevent a great number of people from joining in. The costs can be lower and there is ready access to trainers nationwide. As much as we would prefer 'nothing', the fact is most states require 'something'.

Training is the #1 way the state can restrict the right and force us back to court. My biggest fear these last few weeks has been a sleeper training bill.
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Old April 5th, 2012, 08:40 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gambler View Post
I personally don't care if they mandate SOME form of training. There are some idiots out there, who need to be shown how to handle a gun. What I would oppose is a government only class you had to take. For instance, I took a semester long marksmanship training class in college, that covered everything from safety to maintenance to firing itself. Would that not count under this law? I'm sure I got a lot more training in that class than I would have gotten in a few hour long NRA class. They need to broaden the scope beyond just an NRA class if they are to make a law.
I would say that it probably would not count just because it is not pistol specific. Just my thought.


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Old April 5th, 2012, 08:40 AM   #16
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This is the first salvo in an attempt to "Regulate" the permit process. So yeah...we can go shall issue...but they can certainly make it hell for us.

Give them an inch...they will take a mile.
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Old April 5th, 2012, 08:43 AM   #17
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I said they would do this and I was blasted for it and was told MD didnt have the authority.
They don't have authority without passing a law. So it's right and wrong. MSP cannot add a training requirement without being told to do so by the assembly.

What's wrong with Smigiel's approach is still leaving it too vague.

You must take the NRA "basic pistol class" or equivalent. That's specific. You must take an approved nra hangun class could be anything. Msp could decide that only PPOTH would be acceptable.

That still leaves it up to MSP to determine what is an equivalent course but opens the doors for other training programs.

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Old April 5th, 2012, 08:44 AM   #18
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Originally Posted by Hopalong View Post
This is not unexpected. Maryland is one of the few states (maybe the only? I can't recall) that issues permits (albeit very, very few) with zero training requirement. They had G&S and the background check instead so they didn't need a training requirement. Keep in mind, Maryland's carry permit laws were written with the idea that very, very few people would be carrying and the state assumed that the select few would handle training on their own. It wasn't written with the idea of the general population carrying so it'll need to be re-evaluated post-Wollard.
Pennsylvania has no training requirement.

So when is military service, or will MD hunter education going to count toward training?

Remember, Sine Die is 04/09/2012
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Old April 5th, 2012, 08:44 AM   #19
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They had G&S and the background check instead so they didn't need a training requirement. Keep in mind, Maryland's carry permit laws were written with the idea that very, very few people would be carrying and the state assumed that the select few would handle training on their own.
Guaranteed that's the logic they are using I agree 100%. But as others have pointed out Pennsylvania does not require that. Hell that video I had to watch to buy a regulated firearm is training. . If there is an additional training requirements then every single active MD permit should be voided until proof was given of training. Only fair right ?

Realistically there is no way Maryland who is fighting tooth and nail right now will open the flood gates even after they are told to. "Jack" Omalley will pull something out of his pocket ..its for the children. We will have to play the game, it could go either 2 ways, Chicago / DC style laws where one has to go hoop after hoop or something like Virginia's permit process, fill out one sheet of paper show you have had training show you are not a criminal and call it a day.


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Old April 5th, 2012, 08:44 AM   #20
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Even for LEO to get CCW, training and yearly qualification is required.

"As of August 1, 2011 the Maryland Police and Correctional Training Commissions, Firearms Training Facility, has assumed responsibility for LEOSA training and issuing of the firearm certification cards to people they train."

The CCW is only good for one year and the training cost $50 for 3 hours of classroom instruction and qualification.

I don't know how they can have lower standards for Joe Citizen


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