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Old March 23rd, 2012, 03:05 AM   #141
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Being in the army, and receiving training that would allow me to carry concealed as a government employee, I have received approximately 30 to 40 hours of training in the last year with live ammunition. I was taught to fire 2 to the chest immediately, I was also taught that if the paper "target" did not go down, i.e. armor, then place one shot in the head, preferably in the face. Yes, at first, it is a conscious decision to aim for the head, but after numerous hours of repetition, it becomes muscle memory. If you really need to pull out a pistol, your training will kick in and you're almost on autopilot at that point. Nobody wants to think about aiming for the head, but it's more common for LE and Military to encounter body armor than citizens.


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Old March 25th, 2012, 05:15 PM   #142
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Have you tried it in a force-on-force situation?


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Old March 26th, 2012, 09:36 AM   #143
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Have you tried it in a force-on-force situation?
I have, SIMS. Many times in my line of work. Actually, head shots are the order of my day for me. 2 and 1 is difficult but can be done with training on other than standing paper targets. Force on force SIMS is funny. We actually find ourselves going to head shots because of shooting each other in the hands when actually facing each other shooting center mass. My circumstance is different than 99.99% of everyone else tho.


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Old March 26th, 2012, 10:12 AM   #144
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That is good shooting considering that SIMS protocol is not to engage targets within 7 yards (another reason I am not a fan).

Are these head shots being accomplished during spontaneous draws out of the holster or while clearing rooms etc?- George


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Old March 26th, 2012, 10:30 AM   #145
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That is good shooting considering that SIMS protocol is not to engage targets within 7 yards (another reason I am not a fan).

Are these head shots being accomplished during spontaneous draws out of the holster or while clearing rooms etc?- George
Sometimes it is difficult to remember to shout " Press! Press!" within proximity.

Numerous scenarios starting from a seated position and from a position of dominance engaging threats in a seated position ( All you have is a head). This would be in an airplane.


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Old March 28th, 2012, 04:51 PM   #146
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A while back a guy went postal on the steps of a courthouse with a rifle and body armor.

The good-guy landed several solid body hits that were not effective. The bad-guy then killed the good guy.

I think the Moz drill is more for this type of situation than the guy who tries to mug you at the ATM.

I agree with the above -- I'd land a lot of rapid shots (just accurate enough to hit the torso), I'd only aim for something else if my hits weren't doing anything.
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Old April 1st, 2012, 09:45 PM   #147
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Just got done doing a Total Officer Survival Class in Cleveland OH for 22 in-service police officers. We did many drills and scenarios but here is the most telling. First we did the 21 foot drill. The good guy had a Glock 17 airsoft in a level II duty rig. The bad guy had a Blue Rings Box cutter. They were exactly 21 feet apart. While standing behind the good guy I would drop my arm provoking the bad guy to charge in an attempt to cut the good gun.

During the first run the majority of officers moved drew their gun, got two hands on the gun, and moved quickly backward or to their right. This resulted in many of them falling backwards or running into things. Some were cut, some were not, what saved many was the ability to "run away".

The problem is that we would seldom have this amount of room to move. SO I changed conditions, told them they could not move back or right at all, and had to shoot one handed. The drill was done on a sidewalk that was approximately 3 feet wide. They were instructed to try to move to the left as little as possible. They were also told to use their week hand to defend/parry the knife attack. Oh, one last change of conditions we drooped the distance to 15 feet. Here were the results-

Most officers were able to avoid getting cut, those that were cut suffered cuts to the outside of their weak side arm or back of the hand. They ALL put rounds center mass. One bad guy was shot in the face at very close distance.

One this that was the same at 21 and 15 feet was that no officers reported seeing their sights. That was obvious because there was never enough time to get their gun to eye level.

So putting rounds COM against an attacking target and then aiming for the head seems to be again more range than reality.- George


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Old April 1st, 2012, 11:31 PM   #148
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It's situational. A guy with a knife isn't going to have body armor or something else to require a headshot. A pair of guys running body armor robbing a bank, or wearing some while running up courthouse steps does.

The drill originally was designed to get people to break out of the "always COM" thinking, and be able to adapt and change pace. Going from prioritizing speed to prioritizing precision also requires a conscious decision // paradigm shift. The drill originally wasn't timed, just a 2 shot COM, assess, headshot if needed. Nowadays people just try to run it as fast as they can, and lose the original purposes behind the drill.


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Old April 2nd, 2012, 12:17 AM   #149
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During the first run the majority of officers moved drew their gun, got two hands on the gun, and moved quickly backward or to their right. This resulted in many of them falling backwards or running into things. Some were cut, some were not, what saved many was the ability to "run away".
Why 2 handed shooting in this scenario?? How about bent elbow out of the holster? Get an important round out immediately as you are coming up on target (if you are even able to get it up that far). The bad guy is running and closing the gap very quick. It will be a close up shot.


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Old April 2nd, 2012, 09:18 AM   #150
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Why 2 handed shooting in this scenario?? How about bent elbow out of the holster? Get an important round out immediately as you are coming up on target (if you are even able to get it up that far). The bad guy is running and closing the gap very quick. It will be a close up shot.
You would think so but as soon as they take a step back or laterally they almost all went to two hands.

I understand the reason behind the drill but it is bullshit and fairydust. Where are all the stories about bad guys wearing body armor? I know of two incidents.

I teach to start pulling the trigger as soon as the muzzle gets between you and the bad guy. Rounds into the legs and groin, think of it as a ballistic ball tap as you track up. This would bring the head and chest down to were the rounds are striking. This is how we do it every time vs bypassing all that, putting rounds to the chest, thinking we will have time to go "hmm, that not working", and then "aiming" for the head. And if they are wearing armor their legs and groin will likely be exposed. Training this way would allow you to deal with the body armor problem as part of your regular response instead of being a stand along transition response.

During a fatal shooting I used a pistol and a shotgun, the guy did not stop and at no time did I consider "aiming" for his head. Maybe I need more square range training.

Oh, and why can't a guy wearing body armor have a knife, is that a rule somewhere?

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Old April 2nd, 2012, 09:27 AM   #151
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The bottom line is police depts do not have more, consistent advanced firearms training to reinforce advanced skills. Some of us are pretty fortunate. In my environment, there is no cover to duck behind or run to. Everything has to be dynamic, surprising defense.
I just hope the God of skill and luck be with anyone who is ever in this situation.

To give a person an edge, I recommend reading " Warrior Mindset ".


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Old April 2nd, 2012, 09:51 AM   #152
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Cover is a luxury.

The officers in this class were those interested in officer survival and not your typical.- George


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Old April 2nd, 2012, 09:40 PM   #153
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Cover is a luxury.

The officers in this class were those interested in officer survival and not your typical.- George
I can go with you next time and show them what they need.


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Old April 8th, 2012, 04:24 PM   #154
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I have to ask Blaster229, what's your job?


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Old April 8th, 2012, 05:05 PM   #155
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It may have already been said, but...

Two to the chest and one to the head, does not bode well for civilian applications, as it is much better to fire until the perp succumbs, or runs. The prosecution, unless you've trained this way, will eat you alive for "thinking" about the head shot.

With that said, we were trained that way, militarily, in that the two COM shots were to put the target down, immediately. The head shot didn't come, until you moved up on the target, as you passed, in order to keep the target from re-engaging and shooting you in the back, as you passed by.
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Old April 8th, 2012, 07:55 PM   #156
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I have to ask Blaster229, what's your job?
PM sent.


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Old April 8th, 2012, 07:57 PM   #157
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The head shot didn't come, until you moved up on the target, as you passed, in order to keep the target from re-engaging and shooting you in the back, as you passed by.
This is what is called a "security round".


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Old April 8th, 2012, 08:48 PM   #158
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This is what is called a "security round".
Understood. You get that in military type training, but if you do it on the street, they try and call it "premeditation" or "assassination.
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Old April 8th, 2012, 08:51 PM   #159
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Anyone who has been around any kind of pistol training has heard this one. But try as I might, I am unable to find a documented situation where a law enforcement officer or citizen has accomplished it with a pistol.
Thats your problem. It is intended as a COMBAT drill. Its origins are in combat. Hell, its even named for a conflict.

In CQB training i was taught this, except it was a Double Tap COM then immediately line up for the headshot and take it if necessary. And, of course, move appropriately while doing this. And typically it was a situation where the 12ga was empty with tangos remaining.

It is absolutely not meant for civilian use and would probably result in excessive force for a LEO. But that is the difference. In Combat you are actually trying to kill people, in a home invasion you are trying to use enough force to stop a threat.
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Old April 8th, 2012, 08:53 PM   #160
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Thats your problem. It is intended as a COMBAT drill. Its origins are in combat. Hell, its even named for a conflict.

In CQB training i was taught this, except it was a Double Tap COM then immediately line up for the headshot and take it if necessary. And, of course, move appropriately while doing this.

It is absolutely not meant for civilian use and would probably result in excessive force for a LEO. But that is the difference. In Combat you are actually trying to kill people, in a home invasion you are trying to use enough force to stop a threat.
Well said.


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