Project Fast and Furious Thread

[Patrick]

Apparently the rumors around the ATF Project Gunrunner have been looked into by aides to Senator Grassley and there may be some fire to go with the smoke. I have avoided the story because it smacks of tinfoil hats and was sourced using anonymous resources, then reported in the Examiner.

But Grassley says he has seen some damning documentation and apparently a recently retired ATF attache to Mexico is ready to also spill some beans.

In a nutshell, Gunrunner is the ATF task force/investigation designed to ferret out cross-border transfers of US guns to Mexican drug cartels and gangs. It has been a disappointment in the sense that only low-level operators have been nabbed. Outside of one recent bust of more than a dozen low-level people on the US side, 67% of all prosecutions were of lone operators and profiteers. Hardly kingpin material there.

The rumors are that an office in Arizona - with headquarters approval - "walked" 500 AR-15 rifles from the US to Mexico to pad the numbers of guns later traced back to the USA, without the involvement of the Mexican Government. Again, the source was questionable.

Then, it was rumored that one of those rifles was used to kill border patrol agent Brian Terry in Arizona in December.

Grassley just wrote two letters to ATF demanding interviews, information and warning them to stop trying to influence an inside "whistleblower" who was talking to his office. Grassley says point blank they have reviewed documentary evidence and it looks like it is credible and partially corroborates the claims. Mainstream Media is starting to pick it up, but slowly given the paucity of credible sources here. Until Grassley got involved, this was all tinfoil hat stuff.

Also, a lawyer for a chain of gun stores in Texas says that his clients were asked by the ATF to allow suspected straw-purchases so that they could later "track them to their destinations". This chain has been ripped by the media in the past few months for allowing these purchases in the first place. They are tired of the buzzsaw and are speaking out. Rumor (again) says there are more, including another big seller in Arizona who has been fed to the lions these last few months.

Again, this is from the Examiner. BUT...Grassley's people have looked into it and they think it's real.

If this reporting is true, it makes the US Government complicit in arming the Mexican Cartels. The last time we got caught doing that was Iran-Contra...and at least there it was to get back hostages.

If confirmed, this would be either a well-intentioned but poorly executed investigation trying to track guns to the Kingpins, or a highly cynical attempt by some in the government to manufacture a problem they could later "solve". Either way it is bad, especially in light of the ATF and Justice Department using the guns they were allegedly moving into Mexico to push restrictions on US persons not involved in the least.

This could kill ATF and force whatever remains of it into the FBI and DHS. But only after the ATF agents involved fill out their new multiple-sales reporting cards. In triplicate.

[aquaman]

subscribed. This is going to get interesting. Thanks for posting this

[Hopalong]

Okay Patrick, you've got my attention now....

[dswanmd]

Originally Posted by aquaman

subscribed. This is going to get interesting. Thanks for posting this

+1

[jonnyl]

wow, not really a fan of the ATF, but I'm sure that most of the folks are regular people trying to do a job given to them from above. If this is true, I hope the guilty are hung out to dry.

The "let's let some through and track them" angle sounds more believable than "let's send a bunch of guns over, then we can crack down on the US gun laws like we want"

either way, could be the swan song...

[rglrguy]

Project gunrunner... how ironic. I am very interested

[Norton]

Boy, am I going to get a lot of mileage out of this.

[hairba111]

NRA News has picked this up:

http://www.nranews.com/#/news

[BeltBuckle]

whoo, baby, this is big! ATF is in deep now. It was bad enough, but when the nimrod in the AZ office started trying to intimidate a witness and retaliate against a "whistle blower" talking to Grassley... Grassley's gonna have his guts for garters. He is one gnarly bulldog.

[Patrick]

Still having a hard time believing this. It just seems so crazy no matter how you draw the angles. But even reluctant MSM are starting to cover it after some digging.

Even if we give benefit of the doubt and say it was good intentions gone awry...why did the headquarters people ignore their field attache about the mess they were going to cause? And why did they let the participating dealers get hammered, especially when the information used to skewer them came from anonymous tips in the Justice Department? And allowing 500 working guns to be sent over the border? This was not a small-time bust with a few guys. This was wholesale export.

The timeline says the gun that killed the CBP agent in December was allowed to transfer by the ATF in January. That means there is no way ATF was tracking those guns or the people who moved them. Not over 11 months. That means even if they wanted to maintain tracking, they lost complete operational control. And how do you track 500 rifles sent to the winds from multiple gun shops using many smugglers? Not possible. Not that long.

This stinks bad. If it bears out it is true...amazing.

And all under Obama's watch. Though, to be fair, we have no evidence his team was even aware. ATF has been a problem child far longer than Obama has been in office. It is unlikely he had any knowledge. Hell, Justice was probably in the dark. But the buck still stops with Obama.

This could make it awful hard to crack down on "rogue dealers" and private transfers when it turns out the Executive Branch were the ones sending guns to Mexico the whole time. They made it a big deal; we didn't. Now they can pay the piper.

Also, anyone considering the international issues involved here? The Mexican press are already running with the story.

[zoostation]

I hope this is not true. If it is true, then I hope those complicit go to jail for a long time. It is impossible for me to believe anyone could hope to track even close to 500 rifles once they got into illicit channels, even with all of the federal resources. The only reason that many rifles would get released over the border on purpose would be to pad the numbers of US guns and create a problem for someone to get credit for "solving." Either that or a horrible, horrible mistake, or some type of corruption. But legitimate? Hard for me to believe.

This does have the stench of a Clinton-era shenanigan all over it.

Unfortunately, the difference between this and Iran-Contra will be that the "guilty" side in IC was conservative. The MSM, as well as the leftists in Congress couldn't wait to get something on Reagan. You can be sure Matt and Katie won't be so hard on this administration.

If borne out to be true, I predict it will be written off by the .gov and MSM and "the acts of a few rogue agents" and downplayed in its extent. Some low level operational people involved will be sent to prison and will know better than to try to speak up. The true plotters and organizers will remain cloaked behind their shield of political power and sympathetic news sources.

[Inigoes]

Originally Posted by Patrick

This stinks bad. If it bears out it is true...amazing.

And all under Obama's watch. Though, to be fair, we have no evidence his team was even aware. ATF has been a problem child far longer than Obama has been in office. It is unlikely he had any knowledge. Hell, Justice was probably in the dark. But the buck still stops with Obama.

This could make it awful hard to crack down on "rogue dealers" and private transfers when it turns out the Executive Branch were the ones sending guns to Mexico the whole time. They made it a big deal; we didn't. Now they can pay the piper.

Also, anyone considering the international issues involved here? The Mexican press are already running with the story.

Just throwing this out there, The ATF could not have acted alone.

You ask why?

Because the FBI runs the NICS for the background investigations. In order for a FFL to process an unlawful transaction, they have to run the check, which is the final determination.

[fightinbluhen51]

Two other credible sources too...
http://www.miamiherald.com/2011/01/3...-claim-in.html
http://www.politico.com/blogs/glennt...leblowers.html

And of course John Richardson over at No Lawyers, Only Guns & Money had those linked this morning. http://onlygunsandmoney.blogspot.com...-heats-up.html

[Fodder4Thought]

Originally Posted by Inigoes

Just throwing this out there, The ATF could not have acted alone.

You ask why?

Because the FBI runs the NICS for the background investigations. In order for a FFL to process an unlawful transaction, they have to run the check, which is the final determination.

Wouldn't this not be an issue if the rifles were purchased by ATF agents?

[boricuamaximus]

It's Bush's fault.

[Patrick]

Originally Posted by Inigoes

Just throwing this out there, The ATF could not have acted alone.

You ask why?

Because the FBI runs the NICS for the background investigations. In order for a FFL to process an unlawful transaction, they have to run the check, which is the final determination.

Straw buyers would pass, and I think that is the claim being made. That ATF knew of the nature of the buys and told the dealers to let it happen anyway. The dealers complied.

This would mean that the ATF never intended to "control" these guns, because no agents were involved in the sale. The best they could do would be track the resulting mess and tally the score of the dead using trace data from Mexico, assuming the guns ever got caught. Then they could find the strawman and squeeze him/her for info they almost surely could not have, given their low position on the pole.

Idiotic.

I hope this ain't true. Makes the US look bad.

[jonnyl]

Originally Posted by Fodder4Thought

Wouldn't this not be an issue if the rifles were purchased by ATF agents?

or (here's an oxymoron for ya) "legitimate straw purchasers" ??

Edit: yeah, what Patrick said

[Inigoes]

Originally Posted by Fodder4Thought

Wouldn't this not be an issue if the rifles were purchased by ATF agents?

The rifles were sold from a FFL, which requires either a letterhead from the Department/Agency or use, or a NICS.

Bottom line, there has to be some for of documentation.

[Inigoes]

Originally Posted by Patrick

Straw buyers would pass, and I think that is the claim being made. That ATF knew of the nature of the buys and told the dealers to let it happen anyway. The dealers complied.

On some accounts, illegal aliens were purchasing. We're going to have more details meeted out before we start that discussion.

[HardHatMan]

Originally Posted by zoostation

...If borne out to be true, I predict it will be written off by the .gov and MSM and "the acts of a few rogue agents" and downplayed in its extent. Some low level operational people involved will be sent to prison and will know better than to try to speak up. The true plotters and organizers will remain cloaked behind their shield of political power and sympathetic news sources.

That's what I was thinking, too.

Tinfoil hat time: If this does turn out to be true, I could see a big push on more bans. Just think, "If federal agents could do it, what would stop regular citizens from doing this?"...