Savage 110 BA .338 Lapua Magnum or .300 Winchester Magnum..anybody?

I have read all the reviews, wanted to know if anybody has one....or any rifle in .338 Lapua......Supposedly it recoils like a .308 and is very accurate...Grice Guns in Pa has them for 1799.99...Seems like the cheapest way to shoot the big round and i have a long range leupold i could put on it....

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question for you Lapua Dan out to 300 yards what would you get?

The longest shots I anticipate taking right now are out to 300 yards across a soybean field out on the Eastern Shore but there is potential for a 500 yard shot and I will be going after whitetails...I do anticipate reloading, but for now box ammo is what I will be using...from the reviews the .300 win mag has "very mild" recoil while the 338 lapua is .308 level in this particular Savage with the muzzlebreak...what 338 lapua rifle brands and models do you own Lapua Dan, what would you do...? Right now I use a .270 Winchester for this purpose..

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I'd agree with Dan's posts above.

The .308 would be plenty as far as energy goes, even beyond 500 yards, but there can be issues with placement due to wind and ranging errors. A breezy day (10 mph winds) can misplace an otherwise well-aimed .308 bullet by more than 6" at 500 yards. There is also quite a lot of drop at longer distances, relative to true long range cartridges. If you blow your range call by 5%, calling it 475 instead of 500 for example, you're going to end up at least 7 or 8" low - completely off target if aiming for a heart shot.

The .300 WinMag is probably going to be more than enough for what you're doing, in all ways. It has more than enough power, shoots flatter than a .308 and wind deflects it less, so your margin for error is as big as it's going to get. As Dan notes, less drop and less deflection = greater forgiveness of shooter error in doping conditions. There is the FGMM 190 SMK load, and Black Hills loads a 220 SMK that has shot well to 1,150 yards. Handloaded .300 WinMags, with the 208 A-Max or 210 Berger at 2,950 FPS is nothing to sneeze at either, and a good rifle will make first round hits on torso-sized targets at ranges exceeding 1,400 yards if conditions aren't too bad.

The .338 Lapua is certainly the king of commercial long range cartridges, but there is a point where one just can't justify the cost, weight and safe space for a rifle that will not get used very much for what it works best at. Even where the power isn't the most important asset, wind deflection is substantially lower than any lesser cartridges, making placement on more distant targets that much more sure.

One thing often overlooked is the increasingly larger cartridges effects on the shooter. If recoil and blast affect the shooter in a negative way and marksmanship suffers at all, any perceived advantages in drop and drift are immediately lost.

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E.Shell said:

The .308 would be plenty as far as energy goes, even beyond 500 yards, but there can be issues with placement due to wind and ranging errors. A breezy day (10 mph winds) can misplace an otherwise well-aimed .308 bullet by more than 6" at 500 yards. There is also quite a lot of drop at longer distances, relative to true long range cartridges. If you blow your range call by 5%, calling it 475 instead of 500 for example, you're going to end up at least 7 or 8" low - completely off target if aiming for a heart shot.

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Ed,

Thanks as usual for the clinic on long range shooting. Wow, I'm stunned to hear that only a 5% (25 yards at 500) error in range estimation with a .308 can mean a difference in hitting 7 or 8" low.

Could you put that 5% range call error with the .308 in perspective by comparing it with other long range calibers? For example, how much is the point of impact off with a 5% range estimation error at 500 yards with a .300 Win Mag? What about something like the .338 Lapua or .338 Edge? Thanks Ed.

trbon8r said:

Ed,

Thanks as usual for the clinic on long range shooting. Wow, I'm stunned to hear that only a 5% (25 yards at 500) error in range estimation with a .308 can mean a difference of 7 or 8".

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Strange, Ed's wife says it's only a 2-3" difference.

All the ballistics trajectory calculations your heart desires

trbon8r said:

...Could you put that 5% range call error with the .308 in perspective by comparing it with other long range calibers? For example, how much is the point of impact off with a 5% range estimation error at 500 yards with a .300 Win Mag? What about something like the .338 Lapua or .338 Edge? Thanks Ed.

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My .308/175 SMK loads shoots about 2,700 fps - an efficient bullet at good velocity. At sea level and 475 yards, I have about 48-3/4" of drop from my 100 yard zero. If the target is really at 500, drop is then about 56", so if I had dialed for 475, the bullet would strike 7-1/4" low. A less efficient hunting bullet would be worse, and a 165 Ballistic Tip, definitely not the worst ballistic choice, loses 8-1/4" (MV=2,750).

You may find it interesting that the drop of a .308/175 at Quantico, between the target frames (1,000 yards) and berm (1,030 yards) to be around 25" - more than TWO FEET in 30 yards. Those who would shoot long range game might be especially careful with their ranging, not to mention a mere 1 mph wind error at 1k causing a 9" miss.

In comparison to the .308 above, the .300 WinMag will drive a 210 class bullet at around 2,950, and the 208 A-Max will kill a deer pretty decisively if you hit him right. The same shot as above, 475 drop is 36-1/4" and 500 is 41-1/2", so the drop error is 5-1/4"; 2" less.

As distances increase, this drop advantage over the .308 also increases, and the difference between 1,000 and 1,030 is around 18" - 25% less. Wind is better too, only 6" per mph vs 9" for the .308.

A .338 Lapua will drive a 250 grain bullet at close to 3,000 fps, and this too exceeds the minimum energy requirement for deer. This muzzle velocity is very close to the .300 WinMag, which means that until the ballistic advantage of the heavier .338 bullet begins to produce less drop at greater and greater distances, it's drop will be similar to the .300 WinMag. The drop difference between 475 and 500 here is 5-1/4", which is QUITE similar.

Here again, as distances increase, the larger caliber will ultimately provide increasing advantage, especially if the better, but more difficult to stabilize 300 grain bullet can be used. The 1k vs 1,030 drop difference is around 14", and wind is down to 5"/mph at 1k.

Now, if we take the .300 WinMag and .338 Lapua to 2,000 yards, the differences get BIG, especially wind. How often does one shoot that far? Often enough to buy a .338 over a .300 WinMag?

As one can see, and as I had posted above, most folks really can't get far enough back to make the .338 Lapua's ballistic advantage a big factor.

armed ferret said:

Strange, Ed's wife says it's only a 2-3" difference.

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I have a savage in 300 win mag. It works for me. It will take down any game in North America, and the ammo is more likely to be found if I am somewhere and didn't bring enough.

Sako TRG-42 in .338 LM and love it, ammo cost is the killer, check the shows found most of mine there. (cheap) Reloading is the way to go, brings the cost down, I use Lapua Scenar bullets. As stated you need alot of room to shoot it to it fullest. Recoil, it's okay bout that of .308, muzzle blast is another matter though, people will notice. Recoil is not on the level of .458 Win Mag or .460 Weatherby
If you are willing to pay for the starting investment Rifle, Good Optics -S&B, NF, US Optics, cost of ammo then go for it, I have heard good reviews on the Savage and was thinking about getting one, would like to shoot one first (bring my own ammo) Remington looked good also but no one wants to wheel and deal on one..So Savage for me. I'm trying to save for another scope first then buy the gun, that seems to work the best

.308 will do what you want
.300 WM will extend those ranges without breaking the bank or making the wallet disappear
.338 LM will do all of the above and more except it will break the bank and there will be no wallet unless you reload

You can have the best equipment and it's only as good as the operator


-Rock

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Is it possible to not be happy with a TRG? I only ask because I've been lusting after one for many years. Unfortunately I've never been able to bring myself to invest so much into one rifle I won't shoot very often, but the lust is still there and just as strong after these many long years.

For whitetails and what you plan to use I would go with a .300 win mag. I have one and love it as well as .308's etc. recoil isn't bad on the .300 and it's got more then enough punch to reach out a few hundred yards. ammo isn't that bad either. I don't reload and have no plans of reloading anytime soon so when buying a new gun that's one thing I look at.

tosainu1 said:

The longest shots I anticipate taking right now are out to 300 yards across a soybean field out on the Eastern Shore but there is potential for a 500 yard shot and I will be going after whitetails...

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Whitetails with a .338 Lapua Magnum? Stick with your .270. Limit yourself to an ethical range while hunting.

Russ D said:

Is it possible to not be happy with a TRG?..

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Nice rifles, great triggers, but twisted too slow for a 300 grain SMK unless that has recently changed.

IndispensableDestiny said:

Whitetails with a .338 Lapua Magnum? Stick with your .270. Limit yourself to an ethical range while hunting.

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I'd agree that a .270 will do 99% of it, and that one should always strive to exercise sound ethics. I certainly don't encourage sloppy shooting (ask around), but "ethical range" depends on exactly who is driving what rifle, not any magical distance stuck in someone else's head based on their own situation and capability.

What one person THINKS is ethical or unethical can be completely different than what another person experiences in different circumstances. What may be a perfectly good shot today, may be unethical to take tomorrow if the wind is up or the game spooked and fidgety. I've seen shooters who can and do make perfectly humane one shot kills at ranges exceeding 600-700 yards, and I've seen other shooters who should limit themselves to about 25 and use a rest.

You're entering into special circumstances here. Bullet terminal performance no longer limits us, calibers and current rifle quality permits pinpoint accuracy and on-target energy that was unheard of not so long ago. Deer-sized vitals are a rather large target between 300 and 500 yards when your 500 yard groups run 3" or less. It's as easy to hit a clay bird at 500 yards with a good-shooting .300 WinMag as it is to hit one at 100 yards with the rigs most hunters take to the woods.

Funny you should mention it Ed. Why is it many of the foriegn rifles are twisted to slow. If you look at Sako, Tikka, Howa, all are great rifles but almost alway twisted to slowly to take full advantage of the caliber.

Lapua Dan said:

Rockzilla, I find it interesting that you have the Sako and are looking at others. I have the Remington and have been looking moving up to the Sako. Unfortunately, the cost of the rifle has helped me decide to just change the trigger and stock on mine. Are you not happy with it, or just can't get enough of them?

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I love the Sako don't get me wrong and everyone that shoots it likes it.The Sako is one that I would shoot but only use when really necessary. It's hard to explain, maybe this way got a custom .45 built years ago, shot it and wanted something that I could "beat" around per say, will it equal the custom one probably not. I know what it is capable of, either with me behind it or some one else. Same goes a rifle built by Dick Poole here in Frederick long time ago, Rem 700 action, .308 heavy Hart 24" SS Barrel McMillan stock, action squared, trued etc.never fired it, there are others that have a few rounds through them. I have wanted a .338 LM, it was a toss up AI or Sako, Remington "had" barrel issues, Savage "had" one in the works. Did my readings, got my info, got on forums that had discussions about big bore tactical, even some that use it for hunting. Will I ever use it to it's fullest, I hope so. The .338 LM is fun to shoot / reload and I would like to have another one, Savage has been getting good reviews, and don't want to go the custom route like a Sturgeon action to build from. I'm a bolt person, with a few M1 garands, M1a's thrown in, slowly getting back into things, just trying to keep it basic, with what works, good base to build on, good optics (buy good optics you will never regret it), good loads whether they be factory or reloads and reloads for this have done OCW (Optimal Charge Weight) / ladder tests, etc. Got some "sweet" loads.
I have said this before you can have the best equipment but it all boils down to the operator. Sometimes the best is "not" always best.......
Or I know what the Rifle is capable of, what I'm I capable of.. to me it's a challenge, a competition within me...

Lastly it's what you want and what works for you
-Rock

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Lapua Dan said:

Rockzilla, I competely understand. I figured you wanted another one to shoot. They are awesome.
Tosainu1, did you decide on one or the other, or heading in a new direction? It would be hard to go wrong with either really.

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Yes sir you hit the nail on the head, Iam not knocking any of them, want one to keep in practice with, the Savage has been getting great reviews, got nothing against Remington, like I said got 700's. The Savage will be my beat around shoot ever day gun while the Sako will be the one to use when is time to be serious. For some one starting either Savage or Remington will work, who knows I might even help out in the reloading dept.

Oh... before I forget keep checking the shows there are some vendors selling ammo (not reloads), brass cheap.


Also as LD said there is no wrong on this one with either caliber, the .338 LM is costly to shoot but not really that bad if you reload.
the .300 WM is readily available, and once fired brass is starting to be at a reasonable price, check out some of the other forums that deal with the .338 LM, then go from there, on a funny note some friends told me a .375 H&H was over kill for ground hogs


And some reading about .300 -.338LM in a TRG-42
http://www.snipershide.com/forum/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2174845#Post2174845
-Rock