Reloading Accurate .223...

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  • HonestFool03

    Active Member
    Feb 24, 2009
    786
    So, several people are saying how a single stage press yields a more accurate handloaded round.

    My question is, is this true? If it is, are we splitting hairs, or are we talking 1/8 MOA less/more accurate?

    I'm looking at a hornady lock n load. Opinions?


    I'm especially looking forward to hearing from you Russ D, since you seem to have some pretty accurate .223 loads.
     
    Last edited:

    JamesBailey

    Form Factor'ed!
    Jan 28, 2010
    873
    Arlington VA
    Loads for a semi-auto AR? If so, you will not notice a difference between a progressive and single stage load. If you are loading for benchrest rifle, you will maybe notice difference (1/4 moa, guestimate). The major reason that a single stage produces more accurate load is the fact that the loader is generally more careful on each round made - i.e. carefully measuring out the powder charge, checking the seating depth of each bullet, etc.

    Remember, you can alway turn a progressive press into a single stage press. Just turn off the progressive mech and you have a single stage. :thumbsup:

    The Hornady LnL AutoProgressive is a great press; it is good to go for sub MOA loads at high rates of production.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    Accuracy comes from consistency and concentricy in the rifle, ammo, and most importantly the shooter. There are hundreds of factors that affect accuracy, and depending on your skill, equipment and needs you will reach a point of diminishing returns, where it may take an extra hour per 100 rounds, or a few hundred in rifle work to eek out a hair bit more.

    Generally progressive presses are not as consistent as single stage, small differences in length and thickness can cause minor inconsistencies in the ammo from round to round, and degrade accuracy, how much so is impossible to tell without shooting. Automatic drop measures can be inaccurate with some powders, buildup on dies, especially the seating die can change OAL, and the brass itself can be inconsistent. Your rifle also matters a lot, a box stock 700 may be only capable of 1-2" at 100 yards, and inconsistencies in the barrel, bolt, and bedding can make even the most consistent ammo only shoot a hair bit better than cheap plinking rounds.

    If you have a good barrel, concentric bolt, and solid bedding, you may get more out of things like sorting cases, or precise OAL seating, but then, the weak link may be your trigger control, or conditions like wind, or a cheap scope.

    A LNL is a good press, and is rigid enough to produce good ammo provided it is set up correctly, and your reloading practices are consistent. The easiest thing to do to improve accuracy is to correctly adjust the dies, measure a fired case to the shoulder with a gauge, adjust the die till the shoulders are bumped back a couple thousandths, then resize/decap only, tumble the lube off, check and trim the cases, and sort them by weight. Heavier cases are thicker, and have less interior volume, creating more pressure, and higher velocities, leading to inconsistencies, I usually group the cases into 3 batches, load and shoot each batch separately. With new or once fired brass, I also use a flash hole uniformer to clear any chips, burrs or debris in the flash holes and to make them a consistent size for consistent ignition, for the most part this helps reduce the amount of fliers, being most of the holes are pretty much already good, but it helps bring the few that are not consistent up to par with the rest, and being it only has to be done once, it doesn't really take up too much time. Some turn case necks to make them consentric and hold the bullet with consistent force, I have tried it with a few, and never really saw much difference in my rifles.

    Even though I have progressives, I do this on a single stage, it is quicker, and being the case prep has to be done out of the press before loading, you don't really save much time with a progressive up to this point. For priming you can do it on or off press. To charge the case, weighing the charges individually, and trickle charging the cases is most consistent, dumping powder from a drum measure can be consistent with some powders like ball, terrible with others like extruded sticks. Some automatic trickle powder dispensers can be just as consistent as trickle charging by hand, but are much faster. My groups shrunk a good bit by doing this, my Savage 308 went from about 1-1.25" groups to .7-1" groups consistently between sorting cases and trickle charging, doing one without the other kinda defeats the purpose, uniform charges with the same headstamp of brass, but with different thicknesses, or sorted brass that gets charged from a drum measure don't really shoot much better than doing neither.

    I measure contact length a simple way, I slotted the neck of a case 1/2 way down, cut the rim off of a sized case, set the bullet in the neck, "soot the bullet" with a candle and chamber it, then open the bolt, and use a cleaning rod to gently push the rond out, check that the bullet didn't pull out any (shiny ring between the case mouth and soot on the bullet) and measure it with a mic. Every rifle and bullet likes a different distance to the lands, my 308 bolt gun shoots SMKs best with contact to just a couple thousandths away from the lands, my Howa in 223 likes 52gr SMKs about .010"-.015" away, but the flat base 53gr SMKs practically touching the rifling. You need to experiment to find what shoots best, and what difference it makes, in my Savage 308, the groups gradually shrink to their smallest at .005", the Howa in 223 is not as picky, and there isn't much difference within about .020" of the measurement that it likes.

    Once the ammo is done, shooting it over a chronograph from a benchrest will help you find what is best. I shoot 5 rounds, boresnake my barrel, then start shooting 5 round groups with about 10 minutes and a pass with the boresnake inbetween. I measure groups with a mic, and write down group size, velocity, SD and ES, along with the reloading specifics for those rounds, doing this, you can see what variables help, and what don't matter, every rifle is different, so what works in mine may not work in yours.
     

    Idempotent

    Zombies' Worst Nightmare
    Apr 12, 2010
    1,623
    It's not so much the press as it is the method of reloading. As James points out, you can use a progressive press and effectively use it as a single-stage press.

    Precision handloading generally requires trimming each case to length, cleaning out primer pockets, hand-weighing powder charges to be as accurate as possible, chamfering/deburring the case necks, and doing each resize and seating manually and carefully looking for any differences, including measuring various lengths every so often to make sure everything's still good.

    Yes, it takes a lot longer per cartridge than making them in assembly line fashion.
     

    Fustercluck

    Active Member
    Aug 4, 2008
    776
    Eastern Shore
    So, several people are saying how a single stage press yields a more accurate handloaded round.

    My question is, is this true? If it is, are we splitting hairs, or are we talking 1/8 MOA less/more accurate?

    I'm looking at a hornady lock n load. Opinions?


    I'm especially looking forward to hearing from you Russ D, since you seem to have some pretty accurate .223 loads.

    With the caliber you are talking about and its intended purpose, yes you are splitting hairs by detailing the advantages in accuracy afforded by a single-stage press. If you had asked about maximizing the accuracy of your 6BR-chambered 40x/Shilen benchrest rifle, then the discussion would be totally different. "more accurate" is a relative term, depending on who you ask.

    For target shooting, 3-gun, or even medium distance competition, you will notice minimal, if any difference by elaborate case-prep before reloading the ammo. In that situation, a progressive press will make more accurate ammo than you can buy off the shelf.

    If, on the other hand, you are chasing 1-hole groups for 100m BR competition, then a progressive press will be a hindrance to efficient loading. This is because of the amount of case prep that occurs between station one and two on most progressive presses. You totally lose the advantage of the progressive by pulling the brass off the press after resizing. Even more importantly, you cannot accurately meter powder efficiently on a progressive press.

    HTH,
    Danny
     

    ALBY

    Active Member
    Jan 5, 2008
    652
    Here is the basics of my .223 load and my .02.

    75GR BTHP hornady match
    Ramshot TAC
    .223 OAL

    i think the powder drop is 23 gr and change (i can confirm later).

    I have been loading this .223 for 3gun. i am looking to duplicate the flight path for Hornady 75gr match loads.

    My loads have very good consistency in terms of velocity and I'm down in the 20's for standard deviation on a 2600 FPS round. I load on a 650 and I'm pleased with that. The powder drop appears to be pretty consistent.

    I use range brass I pick up at 3 gun matchs and i send it to a brass processor where it is resized, swaged, trimmed and tumbled. I've tested the loads by headstamp and found headstamp to make 0 difference. none.

    I can load 400 an hour or so.

    My accuracy now is just about 1.5-2 MOA vs about .5MOA for the hornady factory match.

    I have some very knowledgable reloading support in my 3gun crew and we're pretty sure it is the burr's in the case mouth that make the difference. they could be removed, but frankly, it would slow me down too much.

    I also might be able to let the OAL out a little, get me a little closer to the rifling, but reliable feeding from a magazine is then the issue. i also put a tight lee FCD crimp on it as I am paranoid about setback in the mag.

    so here is where i ended up. I am now shooting a 1.5MOA 75 gr HP pill for .21 a round vs 55.gr UMC 3moa ammo for .40 a round (going down recently).

    I'm OK with that. it serves 90% of my 3 gun needs. i shoot the Hornady match on the long shots..
     

    Russ D

    Ultimate Member
    Nov 10, 2008
    12,029
    Sykesville
    I have narrowed my .223 reloads down to two loads. For distance I shoot 75 gr. Hornady BTHP's over 24.0 grains of Varget loaded to 2.260. It's sub moa in all of my guns. For 3 gun and plinking I shoot 55 grain Vmax's over 27.0 grains of Varget. This load has proven to be the most accurate load I've tested in all of my guns as well as a few of my buddies who may also choose to chime in. We shoot this load to .5 MOA or better in our White Oak SPR builds. As for the press, I really don't think it will be an issue whether you use single stage or progressive as long as you pay attention to the details of good case prep and spend the time to make sure your charges and seating depths are accurate.
     

    bulletbill

    Agent provocateur
    Dec 31, 2008
    2,908
    SW FL
    Buy the LNL and don't look back. The loads will be plenty accurate. I ran my 6x47 lapua rounds through mine and they were just as accurate as my single stage. The only thing I could see doing for an exact powder drop would be to use a charging die and drop and weigh the powder off the press then fill through the powder charging die.

    As an aside, I am considering buying a powder cop for reloading 223. The RCBS lockout die is awesome but doesn't work so well for rifle loading.
     

    Kinbote

    Active Member
    Aug 17, 2010
    499
    I don't have any experience with the Hornady reloader, but I don't think you can go wrong with a Dillon 550B. Technically, any of the commercial progressive presses can have a slight bit of flex in the shell plates, which can lead to a slight degradation of accuracy, but that is usually more theoretical than actual, in my experience.

    The Hornady LNL does have 5 stations compared to 4 on the 550, price seems pretty similar. If you're going to be doing a fair bit of shooting I would definitely get a progressive over a single-stage.
     

    jjbduke2004

    Ultimate Member
    Oct 19, 2008
    1,764
    Morris Oblast, NJ SSR
    Buy the LNL and don't look back. The loads will be plenty accurate. I ran my 6x47 lapua rounds through mine and they were just as accurate as my single stage. The only thing I could see doing for an exact powder drop would be to use a charging die and drop and weigh the powder off the press then fill through the powder charging die.

    I'm interested in your order of operations. Do you just use the press to prime, charge and seat?
    I'm interested in speeding up my .223 reloading for Service Rifle competition. I'm currently running the following steps:

    1. tumble
    2. lube
    3. size
    4. tumble lube off
    5. trim (three way blade chamfers/deburrs)
    6. flash holes for new brass (may be omittable)
    7. clean primer pockets (might be able to skip this one too)
    8. prime, charge, seat, profit

    Unless I get a power trim die, and skip some steps listed above I don't see much advantage to a progressive press for rifle. But you're a bolt gun guy, so you may only be neck sizing, so that may have less steps.
     

    bulletbill

    Agent provocateur
    Dec 31, 2008
    2,908
    SW FL
    I'm interested in your order of operations. Do you just use the press to prime, charge and seat?
    I'm interested in speeding up my .223 reloading for Service Rifle competition. I'm currently running the following steps:

    1. tumble
    2. lube
    3. size
    4. tumble lube off
    5. trim (three way blade chamfers/deburrs)
    6. flash holes for new brass (may be omittable)
    7. clean primer pockets (might be able to skip this one too)
    8. prime, charge, seat, profit

    Unless I get a power trim die, and skip some steps listed above I don't see much advantage to a progressive press for rifle. But you're a bolt gun guy, so you may only be neck sizing, so that may have less steps.

    It depends on how I'm loading which methodology I use.

    New brass is when I generally pay attention to the flash holes and that's generally before I size anything.

    Pretty much the same with trimming, since I generally neck size I'll tumble then trim if needed. Since I don't trim often the chamfer process isn't performed either unless I trim.

    I pretty much dropped the whole clean primer pockets deal. With my level of accuracy, horse crap, I haven't seen the benefit. That may change again but for now I'm not doing it.

    So if I have fired brass from the bolt gun;

    Tumble
    Check OAL
    Trim if required
    Chamfer if trimmed
    Lube every 5th case
    Neck size/Decap
    Prime
    Charge
    Seat
    Wipe down with microfibre cloth

    If it's 223 it's pretty much the same flow as pistol rounds save for crimped brass. That makes a stop to the single stage for swaging. Once swaged it's like any other 223 round, right through the process. Since I doubt I'll ever want to spend that much time worrying about the nats ass accuracy of the 223 I just run it through;

    Tumble
    Lube
    Size/decap
    Prime
    charge
    seat
    wipe down after my run is complete.

    As to the runout on the LNL, it's a whole lot less than I ever got out of the Lee single stage. The case master don't lie.
     

    JamesBailey

    Form Factor'ed!
    Jan 28, 2010
    873
    Arlington VA
    I'm interested in your order of operations. Do you just use the press to prime, charge and seat?
    I'm interested in speeding up my .223 reloading for Service Rifle competition. I'm currently running the following steps:
    .

    Jon-
    I have a Hornady AP LnL and do things in two steps with the AP for 223.

    After using ultrasonice cleaner (don't like tumbling in house w/ two small girls running around), I lube and run the cases thru the press w/ only the sizer/decapper on the press (i.e. 1 station in op, 4 stations empty).

    Then I trim (no press involved).

    Then I set up the priming, powder drop, a powder cop, and the seater on the AP and run all those steps at once on the press. Note that I have a manual powder drop - I'm not using the auto drop. I use the manual because I found that it is (1) more accurate, (2) allows me to use the extruded powders (I like RL 15 a lot, but also have used 4064 and Varget on there with good success).

    I'm working up loading process for bolt-gun (6.5x47mm Lapua) and I'm not exactly sure yet how AP will fit in; but for 223, it knocks out 100 or so rounds an hour that deliver sub-moa accuracy.
     
    Last edited:

    Russ D

    Ultimate Member
    Nov 10, 2008
    12,029
    Sykesville
    It depends on how I'm loading which methodology I use.

    New brass is when I generally pay attention to the flash holes and that's generally before I size anything.

    Pretty much the same with trimming, since I generally neck size I'll tumble then trim if needed. Since I don't trim often the chamfer process isn't performed either unless I trim.

    I pretty much dropped the whole clean primer pockets deal. With my level of accuracy, horse crap, I haven't seen the benefit. That may change again but for now I'm not doing it.

    So if I have fired brass from the bolt gun;

    Tumble
    Check OAL
    Trim if required
    Chamfer if trimmed
    Lube every 5th case
    Neck size/Decap
    Prime
    Charge
    Seat
    Wipe down with microfibre cloth

    If it's 223 it's pretty much the same flow as pistol rounds save for crimped brass. That makes a stop to the single stage for swaging. Once swaged it's like any other 223 round, right through the process. Since I doubt I'll ever want to spend that much time worrying about the nats ass accuracy of the 223 I just run it through;

    Tumble
    Lube
    Size/decap
    Prime
    charge
    seat
    wipe down after my run is complete.

    As to the runout on the LNL, it's a whole lot less than I ever got out of the Lee single stage. The case master don't lie.

    :thumbsup: Same for me. I gave up on cleaning primer pockets.
     

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