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Old June 28th, 2010, 05:37 PM   #1
ATTYSHOOTER
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Help Change Maryland CCW Law

My office is interested in speaking with individuals who have applied for and been denied CCW permits in Maryland in the last three years. If you qualify and are interested in the potential to obtain your permit under today's decision in the Chicago case, please feel free to contact me.

Our efforts will be pro bono unless the Court orders the State to pay our fees. In other words, no fee will be charged to those who respond under any circumstances.

Best regards,

Cary Hansel
Joseph, Greenwald & Laake, P.A.
6404 Ivy Lane, Suite 400
Greenbelt, Maryland 20904
301-220-2200 (phone)
301-220-1214 (facsimile)
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Old June 28th, 2010, 05:39 PM   #2
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ATTYSHOOTER View Post
My office is interested in speaking with individuals who have applied for and been denied CCW permits in Maryland in the last three years. If you qualify and are interested in the potential to obtain your permit under today's decision in the Chicago case, please feel free to contact me.

Our efforts will be pro bono unless the Court orders the State to pay our fees. In other words, no fee will be charged to those who respond under any circumstances.

Best regards,

Cary Hansel
Joseph, Greenwald & Laake, P.A.
6404 Ivy Lane, Suite 400
Greenbelt, Maryland 20904
301-220-2200 (phone)
301-220-1214 (facsimile)
Cary,

Would you be interested in a few attempts done post-McDonald, utilizing 'Self-Defense' as the purpose?

Thanks in advance...


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Old June 28th, 2010, 05:46 PM   #3
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Generally, we are looking to move faster than that. I expect that those who apply now will find the government simply sitting on the applications as a strategy to help minimize the number of potential plaintiffs in these cases. We are advising people to go ahead and apply anyway. Then, if they get turned down, they can always join the fight later.
Good luck.
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Old June 28th, 2010, 05:53 PM   #4
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I have NOT applied but just want to say thank you for your efforts!


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Old June 28th, 2010, 05:55 PM   #5
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And respectfully, are you working with another group to further this or are we hoping for a fee bonanza?

Which is perfectly good. I've always maintained that when capitalism makes money defending civil rights, the world is a better place. Feel free to respond in private.

Thanks for the work.
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Old June 28th, 2010, 05:58 PM   #6
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..................


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Old June 28th, 2010, 06:12 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by IjustCantAim View Post
I have NOT applied but just want to say thank you for your efforts!
Couldn't agree more. What do you think our odds are for those of us waiting to apply? I'm seriously considering applying now for extenuating circumstances for CCW here, if that will aid in the 'collective' to establish sensible rulings irt state law. I'd be more than happy to throw some money at this problem. If it's still a fools errand though...


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Old June 28th, 2010, 07:47 PM   #8
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For those of us wanting to apply for the first time, should we say that the reason is for getting a CCW is for our own defense (which in the past practically guaranteed rejection)?

My thinking is that if a bunch of people applied for a CCW with the correctly specified legal words "personal defense" or what ever is the best term to use (ie that a rejection of this application would have a high chance of being overturned based on SCOTUS decision today), then with a flood of new applications with a legal (based on todays decision) reason, would raise attention to the issue and hopefully the AJ and/or legislature would see the handwritting on the wall, so to speak and have to soften the current undue restrictions.

What do you think?

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Old June 28th, 2010, 08:03 PM   #9
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Will applying and being denied hurt chances of being accepted in the future?

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Old June 28th, 2010, 08:30 PM   #10
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I don't know the strategy being considered, Cary, but it seems to me that applying for a "may-issue permit" for a fundamental constitutional right is not the best path.

I think Maryland has 3 options:
  1. Constitutional Carry, like Arizona and Alaska.
  2. Open Carry (which should be the default law at this moment)
  3. Shall Issue, like Virginia.
Maryland's "May Issue CCW permit" without an existing lawful Open Carry standard for adults (except felons and mentally ill) is, today, I believe unconstitutional.

I think Open Carry, at a minimum, is the law of the land today.

The court test would be for a dozen folks (attorneys?) to have a peaceful open carry lunch at the Inner Harbor and defy the cops to do something about it. Media welcome.

Will Maryland try to enforce unconstitutional laws? Maybe. Maybe not. They are prosecuting wiretap cases for videorecording cops in public performing official duties. Smart, they are not.


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In Muscarello v. United States, 524 U. S. 125 (1998), in the course of analyzing the meaning of “carries a firearm” in a federal criminal statute, JUSTICE GINSBURG wrote that “[s]urely a most familiar meaning is, as the Constitution’s Second Amendment . . . indicate[s]: ‘wear, bear, or carry . . . upon the person or in the clothing or in a pocket, for the purpose . . . of being armed and ready for offensive or defensive action in a case of conflict with another person.’ ” DC v. Heller (2008.)
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Old June 28th, 2010, 10:10 PM   #11
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Originally Posted by ezliving View Post

I think Open Carry, at a minimum, is the law of the land today.

The court test would be for a dozen folks (attorneys?) to have a peaceful open carry lunch at the Inner Harbor and defy the cops to do something about it. Media welcome.

Will Maryland try to enforce unconstitutional laws? Maybe. Maybe not. They are prosecuting wiretap cases for videorecording cops in public performing official duties. Smart, they are not.
That would be insane. You could sit in a cell waiting for your appeal. I think this approach is a fast and logical one. Find people who have already been rejected and file suit. I will watch with great interest.
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Old June 28th, 2010, 10:16 PM   #12
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Seriously, I have always maintained that victory will be at hand when people start making money by getting denied their civil rights, then suing. The Courts can rule on the laws all day, but the civil attorneys are the ones who will make this happen by extracting the one thing most precious to politicians: our cash.

It worked with every other civil right and it will work here.

My only concern is making sure that the first suits come from people dedicated to the cause with lawyers that are versed in the game and frankly...good enough to not blow it. Because precedent is a bitch to fix.
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Old June 28th, 2010, 11:04 PM   #13
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My concern is a sloppy plaintiff.

Alan Gura and the 2nd Amendment Society spend a long time looking for Dick Heller, Otis McDonald and Tom Palmer. These candidates were hand picked and checked, checked, and checked a third time to make sure they had no stains or blemishes that could be used against them.

My concern is that a lawyer who wants to make money will take a sloppy plaintiff who maybe had some issues in the past, or has a bad reputation, or some other issue that could be used to set a precedent and skirt the core issues.


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Old June 28th, 2010, 11:23 PM   #14
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Quote:
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That would be insane. You could sit in a cell waiting for your appeal. I think this approach is a fast and logical one. Find people who have already been rejected and file suit. I will watch with great interest.
You're right. Crazy idea. I thought it would really motivate a dozen attorneys to get Maryland's bad laws tossed toot sweet. I wasn't ready to go to the lunch packing. Honest.

The cases that will be tested will likely be for borderline bad guys busted on a bigger beef off a gun possession charge. They won't be tidy like Heller or McDonald.

There will be police training memos distributed down the chain of command on this decision. It will be interesting to see what the new crime fighting strategy will be.


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In Muscarello v. United States, 524 U. S. 125 (1998), in the course of analyzing the meaning of “carries a firearm” in a federal criminal statute, JUSTICE GINSBURG wrote that “[s]urely a most familiar meaning is, as the Constitution’s Second Amendment . . . indicate[s]: ‘wear, bear, or carry . . . upon the person or in the clothing or in a pocket, for the purpose . . . of being armed and ready for offensive or defensive action in a case of conflict with another person.’ ” DC v. Heller (2008.)
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Old June 28th, 2010, 11:25 PM   #15
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My concern is a sloppy plaintiff.
And a firm that is looking to push MD CCW is still fighting an expensive uphill battle, even if I think they will eventually win.

If the motivation is profit (again...all for it), then at some point they might put business up front and short or cut the case once the RoI gets low or non-existent. So they better have the cash, the lawyers and the drive to get this done. Otherwise they hurt us all.

Quote:
The cases that will be tested will likely be for borderline bad guys busted on a bigger beef off a gun possession charge. They won't be tidy like Heller or McDonald.
Some scholars have noted this, as well. It's not being talked about much right now.

But yeah, it's going to be interesting to see if charges get dropped rather than the prosecutor risking a precedent. All those cases where a cop stop turns into an arrest for carrying a gun...?
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Old June 28th, 2010, 11:34 PM   #16
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Mr. Hansel is a well-known civil rights lawyer who has won some good cases in MD against police misconduct.
http://www.jgllaw.com/Bio/CaryHansel.asp

I've got his firm's info as my "emergency civil rights suit contact" if the MoCO PD ever goes off on a wild hair over my 2A activities, SBR ownership, "anti government extremist views," etc., etc.

In federal civil rights cases, the plaintiff who wins gets to collect his attorneys' fees from the losing governmental agency. That's in the U.S. Code. Alan Gura is fighting with DC over this issue today as a holdover from the Heller case. We're talking millions of dollars here. And today the USSC just kicked open the courthouse door to a nation of Guras.
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Old June 28th, 2010, 11:38 PM   #17
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And a firm that is looking to push MD CCW is still fighting an expensive uphill battle, even if I think they will eventually win.

If the motivation is profit (again...all for it), then at some point they might put business up front and short or cut the case once the RoI gets low or non-existent. So they better have the cash, the lawyers and the drive to get this done. Otherwise they hurt us all.



Some scholars have noted this, as well. It's not being talked about much right now.

But yeah, it's going to be interesting to see if charges get dropped rather than the prosecutor risking a precedent. All those cases where a cop stop turns into an arrest for carrying a gun...?
The reason to apply now us that the court mentioned the "due process" clause of the Constitution. I would argue that police don't have to protect you and that you live in a bad neighborhood and show crime reports. But I would also have some little business just to give the police a reason to grant the permit and save face.

If the case goes Federal the courts will grant fees which could go into the hundred of thousand of dollars if enough plaintiffs jump in.
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Old June 28th, 2010, 11:41 PM   #18
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Since I've had a permit for "BUSINESS" since 1973, should I put down "PERSONAL DEFENSE" on my renewal application and see what happens?
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Old June 28th, 2010, 11:44 PM   #19
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I would love to be in on this but I think i will be denied because i am 18.
How does a long rifle open carry lunch sound? Rifle has to be unloaded, must be slung across your back muzzle pointing down. IIRC it is legal.
And please dont flame me i am just curious is all.


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Old June 28th, 2010, 11:44 PM   #20
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Since I've had a permit for "BUSINESS" since 1973, should I put down "PERSONAL DEFENSE" on my renewal application and see what happens?
You may also put that down but I would not mess with the state that much. I was involved in a case against the State and after arguing at the Federal level the attorney from the ag's office actually said the state can do whatever it wanted no matter how egregious the action is...so if you can avoid the conflict and keep the permit just go the safe way.
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