A must read.....

[Todd v.]

I ran across this in another forum I read. It suposedly came from Glocktalk originally but it's a recount of a defenesive shooting were the victim took two lives and the aftermath he had to deal with. Seriuos stuff. Some of you have probably seen it but it gives excelent insight into what you may have to deal with I think....

A guy and his lady friend are walking down a street after eating a nice steak dinner on Friday night. The area is busy and the only parking available was a nice walk away, not a problem on a beautiful October night.

So the guy, who has had a lot of firearms courses, notices a van slowly driving the other direction on the street. The guy notices the deep gurgling sound of the exhaust, but really doesn't think much of it. Then he notices a couple of thugs crossing the street; said guy is uncomfortable because he and his lady friend seemed to get too much attention from the guys crossing the street. One of those "it just doesn't feel right" type of things.

So the couple continue walking toward the parking garage, when the guy notices the gurgling sound of that van slowly passing by them. Then the guy, who regularly uses windows to watch his 6, notices the two thugs that crossed the street coming up behind them. One of the thugs is clearly holding his right hand suspiciously around his belt buckle area. Then said guy notices the van stopped on the side of the street just ahead and the 2 thugs behind them are getting closer.

Guy tells his lady friend that they are going to duck into any open business they see, but there were not any available. Just as they were coming up on the van, 2 ****-eaters jump out of the van and block the sidewalk. Guy draws his Kimber .45, and moves to engage the thugs 5 feet behind them; the intention was to go to low ready and size up the situation. The two from the van did not appear to be armed and one behind them was already spotted as armed.

So guy turns and starts to shout at the two thugs on foot when the armed one begins to pull a revolver (S&W .38 special). Guy had the jump because the thugs in the rear did not see him remove his pistol from his daytimer style carry.

The guy always, always, always shoots failure drill (two shots to center of mass followed immediately by one shot to the head) at the range and trains at least twice a month.

As the BG (Bad Guy) #1 pulls the pistol, the guy puts two rounds COM (Center Of Mass) and moves up and puts one in the eye area. There was absolutely no reaction to the chest shots in the BG. The second thug turns to his falling comrade and tries to get his pistol, as guy puts 2 slugs in his COM and one in the side of the head, guy didn't know he hit BG #2 with the first 2 rounds. The second thug didn't have time to get turned around to face guy, and didn't go down from the two to the chest, so the guy puts one is the side of his head. Both third shots, at 5 feet, were very messy. Luckily for the guy, the second thug did get his hands on the pistol (a fact that would greatly help him in the future). So after the two in the rear were neutralized, guy turned to check on the two from the van who had started moving his way. When guy turned to engage them, gun at low ready, they turned and ran to the van got in and the van sped off.

The thugs were linked to other rapes and 2 abductions of similar method, and had sheets as long as your arm. (funny how that wasn't admissable in court) The thugs from the van looked more pissed than scared, and guy would encounter them later in life. Turns out they were members of the Gangsta Disciples. The Gangsta's don't take lightly to seeing their bros being shot down in the street.

The aftermath: Said guy was charged with manslaughter (the jury was given other options too) and was found not guilty by a jury of his peers. Deliberations took less than 3 hours. Some of the city council PERSONS believed that failure drill represented too much force and guy should have not made the last shot on the BGs. Of course, if he had not made the third shots in the failure drill, the thugs would be alive today. So city council PERSON, pressures the DA and viola, the decision is made to charge him.

The cost to the guy to stay out of prison was $18,000+. That works out to be $3k per shot, or $9k per BG.

The situation doesn't often end as well in his dreams, as it did in real time, but he never can quite get it behind him. He carries a strange sense of guilt.

The girlfriend that guy was trying to protect, broke up with him 3 weeks later. She just never could get over it and could not understand the violent nature of his counterattack. She dumped him, which broke his heart, but she was a very good witness for his defense, and for that he is eternally grateful.
The follow up encounters (turns out during a trial, it isn't hard to get the home address of the defendant) with the Gangsta Disciples were a little better; and no charges were placed in those instances.

The morals of the story: Live with what happened, or with what may have happened- his girlfriend being abducted..... It is better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6. When the SHTF, you fall back on your training in automatic mode. So train well and often.

By the way: Best $18,000 I ever spent.

Yes it did happen. October 1998. The whole thing exhausted a lot of my savings, and some credit card debt that has since been paid for. The PD (Police Department) Commander on the scene allowed me to go home that night and to come in the following week with a lawyer to make a statement. Everything was clear and obvious to them that night, some officers even commended me.

My initial intentions were to confront them while in the low ready, and hopefully shout them off. As I turned around, the BG had his hand on his gun and was pulling it. I am sure that if he had seen my gun sooner, he would have it pointed at me. And there is the possibility that he drew because he saw mine, but had he stuck his hands up or ran off, I would not have shot. That and their priors convinced the PD that I had acted properly. There were 3 witnesses approaching from behind the van ****-eaters that saw what the van did, and the whole thing. They told the police that night, I had to do it. When they blocked us in, I had no choice but to act.

I was handcuffed and locked in a patrol car for a while, where I puked up that fine steak I had just eaten. Odd feeling when it is over.

The DA prosecuted under political pressure. I did not spend any time in jail, because it was only after the political pressure did the DA decide to prosecute. I surrendered and had bail arranged before we went in. The PD were really nice to me, and they even indicated they thought I was getting a ****ty deal. The Assistant DA that handled the case did not seem to be too interested in getting a conviction. The investigating officers were better witnesses for me than the state. She (assistant DA) allowed my lawyer to seat my dream jury (some code words there) and she let him get some stuff out. At one time my attorney indicated that she wasn't pushing it because of the way she conducted herself.

Girlfriend: Leslie was a nurse and one of those "I could never hurt anyone" types; I am a nurse and we heal...blah blah blah. Another long story. She did not know I was armed that night, or most nights we were together. I found out early that she didn't warm up to guns, so I didn't push it. No huge loss, the timing is what hurt. With all else going on, the last thing I needed was her breaking up. It was not until the trial that I really knew what she would do on the stand. What she did on the stand was enough to settle it for me. I hold no grudges against her, never did. But I won't date another nurse.

As far as the terminal ballistics of the .45. In classes my failure drill from concealed holster generally run in the 1.5 to 2 second area. I doubt any handgun caliber will create adequate results in less than two seconds. I just opened up like I had trained to do. I was going with the 3rd shot, unless the guy was on the ground out of it. When I say there was no reaction to the first two rounds, I meant his head was still where I expected it to be. I never have planned to stop and fully asses the vital signs of an attacker. My plan has always been to do the failure drill if the pumpkin was there and it was. It all happens so fast, you wouldn't believe it.

Since I was innocent, I can still carry.

As for the follow up visits from the Gangstas, I prefer not to get into that right now. Very long ugly stories. On 2 possibly 3 (the 3rd I spotted them and called the police and kept riding around the parking lot, the police came and ran them off so I don't know what their intentions were or if they were there to visit me) different occasions there were young gentlemen waiting for me when I got off work, once was an attempt to kick in my front door while I was home. I highly recommend the Remington 870.

I moved after the initial incident, and the phone company messed up and my 'unlisted' number got listed. So I moved again. A Lt. with the gang squad said that after a while, the membership would turn over to the point they would forget about me. That officer was at my trial and alerted me to potential retribution. There were Gangstas at my trial. Relatives of the deceased I guess. I currently live in another city with an unlisted number. It has been 4 years, so I hope the follow up visits will cease. Everyday when I step out to get in my vehicle, I stop and scan the parking lot real good. My experiences have served to give me an edge and to keep me on my toes, and to keep me awake at night. Better than the alternative.

If I may offer one piece of advice to anyone who will listen:

If you are ever involved in a shooting, resist all urges to look at the guy after he is down. Move out of the area, and don't ever look at them. You want to remember them as a threat, not as a corpse.

Just don't say a word after it happens. Tell the officers you will cooperate, but you are in no condition to make a statement. Every word you say will cost you money.

If you are in the right, and it was a good shoot, you won't have much of an attorney fee. Just for one to meet with you and go in to make a statement. Your range will probably know a good lawyer for this purpose.

I would be willing to bet most pro gun lawyers will allow you to pay as you can.

My problems came from politics. Basically, a democrat council woman did not like the idea of me engaging her constituents. Other than that, the PD would not have recommended charges. I thought I was free and clear until an investigator called me and told me what was going on. He suggested I retain a lawyer and to give him, the officer, the lawyers name so we could arrange a time for me to come in and surrender myself. That made it a lot smoother.

Cooperate with the PD as much as possible. If it is obvious your shooting was just, they won't push you for any answers. In fact, they may even suggest that you not say anything without a lawyer present.

The officers on the beat see what happens to victims and are usually glad when the intended victim gets the upper hand.

White man defends against young black males. Black female council member with a mouth like Cynthia McKinney. White District attorney, in the south in a city with a predominately black population. Draw your own conclusions.

If I may add:

A black officer handcuffed me, apologized for having to do it but it was procedure and he would face disciplinary action if he didn't.

The same black officer uncuffed me, told me it appeared to be a justified shoot and acknowledged I did what needed to be done, suggested I get an attorney and reminded me of my right to remain silent. Told me not to worry about the puke in the car, was very considerate and kind.

Both black and white detectives for follow up meetings, and to take my statement; all had same mindset with regard to it being a justified shoot. It was the black detective that called and told me they would not recommend charges.

A black Lt on gang unit gave me feedback and 'intel' about what to expect from the gang in the future and how to handle it. He also gave me his card, cell phone number and pager number if I ever needed his help. So the problem for me was a politician.

In any situation, the DA is the ultimate decision maker to decide if charges are placed. Usually the DA is or was a politician and they cannot discount a return to politics at some time in the future. When the DA gets a lot of nasty attacks, it will influence his opinion. I don't know what made him decide to go through with it, but for some reason he did. Politics being the way they are, never doubt anything. Do what you have to do, make sure you are in the right, and be ready to support it. Luckily it is the jury that has the last say. In Membabwe (Memphis), you have to consider who will be on your jury. (hint hint.)

I got the gun back after about a month. I had others so I was able to carry.

Good question about the reload, that is a situation that has bugged me since.

The daytimer carry has a stretchable strap for an extra mag. I usually put one in the strap and have another stacked beside it, floating free. When it is zipped, the mag stays secure. It was a dreadful situation after I fired 6 of 9. The daytimer was on the ground, not completely unzipped and it would have been a struggle to quickly reload. I often wonder if I would have had the presence of mind to ration the next 3 rounds, glad I didn't have to do it. Technically, the floating magazine could have fallen on the ground around my feet if I had totally unzipped the daytimer, but the I didn't take the time to do that. I have adjusted my carry method since. I still carry the 1911, with the 2 extra mags, I keep a mag in my left trouser pocket, and have a Glock 19 or a Walther P99 on my ankle, usually the P99. I used a handy stitch to create a pouch in my pocket that holds the mag vertical and high so I can get it quickly. In the slacks I wear, it works pretty well.

The daytimer carry does have that drawback, but we went to a restaurant where alcohol was sold (this point was never pursued by the DA) and without the daytimer, I would not have felt as comfortable carrying in a no carry zone. It was a trade off of smooth use vs. discrete in an area that is illegal to carry in. I still carry the same way now, I just keep an extra mag in my left pocket. I also dry fire with that rig.

In hindsight, I think a 9mm would have been as effective, considering I had to go the full 3 rounds, and I would have been able to have the additional rounds. That is one reason I am going to be fighting for the sunset of the magazine capacity ban. www.awbansunset.com

I have never gotten in the debate of .45 vs 9mm because they are both adequate if properly used.

Another thing for you folks to take away from this experience. I always have my girlfriend on my left because of the potential for using the pistol. The thing I never went over with Leslie was that if I draw, she should start running to a safe place. So tell your wife, gf, significant other, whatever, when the gun comes out, run away from the fight and run for help/safety. Don't worry about me, RUN. That was something we never covered, and we should have. I cover that now.

For what it’s worth: whenever I have a new acquaintance, we go over these things. For those that resist, I tell the story and show them my 'legal' file, and they warm up to the fact really well.

There is really no telling what to expect after a situation. You may go home and sleep, or you may go to jail. Get the business card of a good lawyer from your range (if they don't have a referral lawyer, encourage them to find one and develop a relationship with him), keep it in your wallet next to your permit, or write the lawyers name and number on the back of your permit. Don't discuss it with the police. Tell them you want to speak to a lawyer, that should suffice. Every word you say will cost you money and heartache. The less you say, the less you have to repeat. Spending the night in jail is better than saying something that will haunt you in the future. IMO, the vast majority of police officers will determine quickly that you acted properly and will not press you. My problem was from politicians.

I would like to add some things to your preparations. Deprogram yourself from the brainwashing your parents did on you. Get the idea "I never want to have to kill another human being" out of your head. Those thugs aren't human. Ending a thug life is nothing like ending a human life, don't confuse the two. "Thou Shalt not Murder" is different from "Thou Shall not Kill". The logic of knowing that won't help much, but any little bit helps. My parents put that idea in my head, and I guess it is good for a teenager to hear, but when you are a law abiding adult, you don't want that program in your head.

When you shoot at the range, shoot at the people targets, not just circles and dots

I think I would want my wife well trained, but I want her to run in any event, unless she is boxed in. Of course she won't want to run, but it will be piece of mind for you. Who knows, seeing her take off may distract the BG's, or she can run 10 feet and then engage them, then they have two defenders. You may want to get an expert opinion, I am no expert, on that situation.

[travistheone]

Good posting.

[Bigdtc]

Excellent read, Todd. Thanks. It gives a lot to consider.

"Thou Shalt not Murder" is different from "Thou Shall not Kill"- Words to live by...

[Todd v.]

Yea it makes me really want to find a good 2A lawyer so I have a card on hand just incase.... If something did happen I would have no idea who to call, but I do know to shut up.

[BigBlaze]

good read...kinda makes you think what if....

[3rdRcn]

Good read!

[CorpsmanUp]

Huge balls.

Glad he made it through.

[sdixon12]

Great post, I'am with you all the way

[lax]

good read a lot to think about there

[Streetgang]

Very good read Todd. Killing a human being no matter how savage or thug they are affects your mind. Pumping lead into a gang member is like signing a death warrant. The guy is lucky to be alive. Glad he is.

[HardHatMan]

Awesome post, Todd. Really makes you think.

[The3clipser]

Excellent read.

[Minuteman]

Great article.


Tragic when a victim gets charged.

[Lawyer56]

As an attorney, it really upsets me that he was even charged.

[WeaponsCollector]

This story really can help to make you think twice about using lethal force. If it can be avoided at all, that's the best way to go. It's best to force the attacker to run away, or lie down and wait for the police but of course sometimes the criminal gives you no choice.
I'm lucky. When I got attacked by two carjackers/robbers in a parking lot, I saw them coming and quickly got into my car and locked the door before they got to me. They then went for my friend who was still outside.
I ended up backing over both of them with my car as my friend jumped in. No police were ever contacted and to this day I still don't know what heppened to them and I don't care.
And about anti-gun girlfriends, I have promised myself I will never date a woman who doesn't like guns.
I hope I don't stay single for the rest of my life but that's a chance I will take.

[miles71]

Good post, i just started carrying again after many years not. I just had a talk with my wife (who is a good shot) about what to do if something bad happens. Run, use your phone to get help, find people and I will be fine.

I was lucky as I grew up, I always had a policeman with me, my father. He taught me to shoot, some retention skills, self defense, and what people are capable of.

I really like the lawyer idea, maybe we could get a 2A pro CCW laywer sticky stared on MS?

Glad you are ok, keep safe.

[Lostfantum]

Informative post.

[eadgbe194]

good read, gives me a lot to think about.

[sinzitu]

Good read. thanks

[tss1004]

Good Read, Thanks!