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Old January 17th, 2010, 10:25 AM   #1
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Regulated Firearm vs Non Regulated Firearm

Here's a good one to show people how strange Maryland is...

Guess the Regulated vs Non Regulated status:

Yugo M53 - Non-regulated, cash and carry:


Saiga-12 - Regulated, 7 day wait:
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Old January 17th, 2010, 10:28 AM   #2
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I will guess the M53 is C&R and i could get one without registering it if i had the mula
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Old January 17th, 2010, 10:29 AM   #3
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I stopped trying to make sense of MD gun laws a while back...it was giving me a migrane


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Old January 17th, 2010, 10:35 AM   #4
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I know that some at the MDSP consider the Saiga 12 regulated, but I bet if they were taken to task for it they would lose on the argument. It is not an AK47 and it is not a Kalashnikov rifle.

One of the things I do when I have my netbook with me in the local bar while discussing MD laws is to play the "guess which is regulated" game. I show the picture of the AR15 and then the HBAR one for instance. No one who is not into ARs or guns in general has guessed it right yet.
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Old January 17th, 2010, 10:38 AM   #5
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I would have to get a SteadiCam mount, some motorcycle parts, and turn it into a functional M56 smartgun

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Old January 17th, 2010, 11:51 AM   #6
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Yeah the Saiga 12 is definitely a gray area. I bought mine regulated, and while it can be argued as exempt since it has no rifling, most FFLs will not transfer it as a long gun since it is part of the AK family.

I've been looking for someone to transfer an CZ-85 as cash and carry--which has no similarities to an AK besides its profile. However all of the FFLs near me have so far argued that it is regulated even though it is not listed by name and clearly not an "AK in any form". Any FFLs in central MD want to PM me???

And of course the Kel-Tec SU-16 is NOT considered regulated by most although it takes standard AR mags and has an identical bolt with an AK-style bolt carrier...
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Old January 17th, 2010, 12:14 PM   #7
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Yeah the Saiga 12 is definitely a gray area. I bought mine regulated, and while it can be argued as exempt since it has no rifling, most FFLs will not transfer it as a long gun since it is part of the AK family.

I've been looking for someone to transfer an CZ-85 as cash and carry--which has no similarities to an AK besides its profile. However all of the FFLs near me have so far argued that it is regulated even though it is not listed by name and clearly not an "AK in any form". Any FFLs in central MD want to PM me???

And of course the Kel-Tec SU-16 is NOT considered regulated by most although it takes standard AR mags and has an identical bolt with an AK-style bolt carrier...
You mean vz.58? The CZ-85 is a pistol. The VZ.58 Rifle is DEFINITELY NOT REGULATED.

Mark

PS - You have to be very clear, have all the evidence, and then maybe the FFL might be convinced that it is not regulated. Most will err on the side of caution to avoid legal issues. Who can blame them.
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Old January 17th, 2010, 12:39 PM   #8
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You mean vz.58? The CZ-85 is a pistol. The VZ.58 Rifle is DEFINITELY NOT REGULATED.

Mark

PS - You have to be very clear, have all the evidence, and then maybe the FFL might be convinced that it is not regulated. Most will err on the side of caution to avoid legal issues. Who can blame them.
simple solution: find one of our 'Industry Partners' on here who have actually taken 30 seconds to google it and go from there.


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Old January 17th, 2010, 02:57 PM   #9
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You mean vz.58? The CZ-85 is a pistol. The VZ.58 Rifle is DEFINITELY NOT REGULATED.
Whoops, yes... VZ-58. I just had my CZ-75 out today and must have pistols on the brain
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Old January 18th, 2010, 12:01 PM   #10
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As to the Saiga 12, dealers on here aren't saying anything. I guess they don't know either as to regulated/unregulated. Because of the silence, I assume they all consider it to be regulated, so as to simply stay out of trouble. Perhaps, they come here for opinions like the rest of us.


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Old January 18th, 2010, 12:18 PM   #11
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As to the Saiga 12, dealers on here aren't saying anything. I guess they don't know either as to regulated/unregulated. Because of the silence, I assume they all consider it to be regulated, so as to simply stay out of trouble. Perhaps, they come here for opinions like the rest of us.
I think every dealer uses their own best judgement. I know of at least two who do not consider Saigas regulated.


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Old January 18th, 2010, 12:35 PM   #12
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I think every dealer uses their own best judgement. I know of at least two who do not consider Saigas regulated.
We consider them regulated as that was specifically brought up during orientation with MDSP. Sgt. Semanski (misspelling, I'm too lazy to look it up) said they generally "type the firearms name in google, and if it turns up a picture looking like a regulated weapon, then they consider it a regulated weapon"

So I'm guessing they got a request about the Saiga and now that everyone and their grandmother is making them look like AK's....its been declared regulated.
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Old January 18th, 2010, 12:41 PM   #13
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Originally Posted by keepshooting View Post
We consider them regulated as that was specifically brought up during orientation with MDSP. Sgt. Semanski (misspelling, I'm too lazy to look it up) said they generally "type the firearms name in google, and if it turns up a picture looking like a regulated weapon, then they consider it a regulated weapon"

So I'm guessing they got a request about the Saiga and now that everyone and their grandmother is making them look like AK's....its been declared regulated.
and only they can carry guns, we shall trust our live with them....
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Old January 18th, 2010, 12:52 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by keepshooting View Post
We consider them regulated as that was specifically brought up during orientation with MDSP. Sgt. Semanski (misspelling, I'm too lazy to look it up) said they generally "type the firearms name in google, and if it turns up a picture looking like a regulated weapon, then they consider it a regulated weapon"

So I'm guessing they got a request about the Saiga and now that everyone and their grandmother is making them look like AK's....its been declared regulated.
keepshooting, thanks for your remarks and where you stand on the issue.
As to a regulated weapon, I'd think that the internals of firearm would tell
more than merely a picture. I personally think Novus is right on when he says," It is not an AK47 and it is not a Kalashnikov rifle."
The debate goes on.


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Old January 18th, 2010, 12:53 PM   #15
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keepshooting, thanks for your remarks and where you stand on the issue.
As to a regulated weapon, I'd think that the internals of firearm would tell
more than merely a picture. I personally think Novus is right on when he says," It is not an AK47 and it is not a Kalashnikov rifle."
The debate goes on.
Couldn't agree with you more. Unfortunately that's what we were told and have to go by. Sucks for everyone involved!
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Old January 18th, 2010, 12:54 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by keepshooting View Post
We consider them regulated as that was specifically brought up during orientation with MDSP. Sgt. Semanski (misspelling, I'm too lazy to look it up) said they generally "type the firearms name in google, and if it turns up a picture looking like a regulated weapon, then they consider it a regulated weapon"

So I'm guessing they got a request about the Saiga and now that everyone and their grandmother is making them look like AK's....its been declared regulated.
Not to press about it, because I understand as an FFL01 the MSP have you by the balls more than I, but do you remember who exactly you were speaking to?

Just trying to figure out who the geniuses are in charge


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Old January 18th, 2010, 01:04 PM   #17
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We consider them regulated as that was specifically brought up during orientation with MDSP. Sgt. Semanski (misspelling, I'm too lazy to look it up) said they generally "type the firearms name in google, and if it turns up a picture looking like a regulated weapon, then they consider it a regulated weapon"

So I'm guessing they got a request about the Saiga and now that everyone and their grandmother is making them look like AK's....its been declared regulated.
Ummm, maybe they do consider it regulated if it "looks like" a regulated gun, but that's not how the law is supposed to work. The law is specific, words mean things, and this is not a case of "I'll know a regulated firearm when I see one." That's B.S., unfortunately, the MDSP holds all the cards and unless you want to spend money defending yourself, you'll dance to their tune.

I find it distressing that they use google as their litmus test. What do you think, do you believe that if you google VZ.58 and you see an AK-47 that it's now regulated?!? Sorry, that really doesn't cut it. I won't tell you how to run your business, but that's a lame test.

Mark
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Old January 18th, 2010, 01:53 PM   #18
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Ummm, maybe they do consider it regulated if it "looks like" a regulated gun, but that's not how the law is supposed to work. The law is specific, words mean things, and this is not a case of "I'll know a regulated firearm when I see one." That's B.S., unfortunately, the MDSP holds all the cards and unless you want to spend money defending yourself, you'll dance to their tune.

I find it distressing that they use google as their litmus test. What do you think, do you believe that if you google VZ.58 and you see an AK-47 that it's now regulated?!? Sorry, that really doesn't cut it. I won't tell you how to run your business, but that's a lame test.

Mark

Hey Mark,

I agree, its a lame test. It's not being done by us...its being done by MDSP. Our "test" is whats specifically listed in the regs or what we've been told by MDSP directly.

We have never specifically asked for a ruling by MDSP on a regulated vs non-regulated firearm. Quite honestly, I think its clear that a regulated firearm is whats listed. That being said, if MDSP tells us something is regulated, we're not about to process it as a non-regulated firearm.
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Old January 18th, 2010, 02:48 PM   #19
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When there is something controversial, especially pertaining to firearms,
a ruling OUGHT always be in writing, not merely a telephone ruling.
If it is in black and white, then there can be no mistake and dealers
know clearly what the regulation is pertaining to the controversy.
Most agencies run by the government are required to have something
in writing.


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Paul Newman: "I wish I felt a little more comfortable about the direction that we're going. It does not seem to be of the people, by the people and for the people. It seems to be about something else completely different. I think part of it is the media's fault for not being more aggressive and persistent and nasty and I think it's the people's fault for not paying attention. That's not a good combination. It allows people in government to do pretty much what they want."
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Old January 18th, 2010, 02:50 PM   #20
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Hey Mark,

I agree, its a lame test. It's not being done by us...its being done by MDSP. Our "test" is whats specifically listed in the regs or what we've been told by MDSP directly.

We have never specifically asked for a ruling by MDSP on a regulated vs non-regulated firearm. Quite honestly, I think its clear that a regulated firearm is whats listed. That being said, if MDSP tells us something is regulated, we're not about to process it as a non-regulated firearm.
Yes, however someone needs to hold the MDSP's feet to the fire, they are not supposed to be making up the law as they go along. I think that is what really bothers me about this whole mess.

Take the VZ.58 which some FFL's will not sell as non-regulated. Show me one part that interchanges with ANY part of ANY regulated firearm. That is where MDSP has gone awry. Some there will say the VZ.58 is regulated, others will concede that it is not regulated. You can get different answers depending who you talk to, and that's pretty unfortunate.

Not placing blame on your or any other FFL individually. Like I said above, unless you want it to cost you, you end up dancing their tune. Still it leaves me a little annoyed that they force you and other FFL's to fill out "regulated" firearms paperwork on weapons that were never on the list.

Mark
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