Go Back   Maryland Shooters > The Arsenal > Rifles

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old July 5th, 2009, 02:02 PM   #1
Russ D
Senior Member
 
Russ D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Manchester
Posts: 10,372
Images: 3
Send a message via Yahoo to Russ D
Rebarreling my 22-250 to 308 questions

I'm seriously thinking about rebarreling my Tikka Master Sporter to 308 from 22-250. From what I've read this is really as simple as just buying a barrel and having a gunsmith install it. What else should I have him to that could potentially help with accuracy? The plan is to shoot out the 22-250 barrel first. but I'd like to have everything in place for when I do. It already has very good optics,mounts, and trigger. It also already shoots .5 MOA. Is a Lilja barrel the way to go? I'd like to be able to possibly push this out to 1k yards. I'm thinking about a 26" 1/12 twist Heavy Varmint taper fluted Lilja barrel. Any local gunsmiths up to the task?
Russ D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2009, 03:29 PM   #2
JSW
Senior Member
 
JSW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bryansville, Pa.
Posts: 1,648
Images: 1
I could be wrong but I believe if you are going to shoot 308 long range it is best done with the heavy 175 + bullets. If that is the case I would go with a 1/10 twist. That is what is on most 30-06, 300 win mag and others of that size. we even have some barrels at work in 1/9.25 for 30 cal work.
JSW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2009, 04:27 PM   #3
Jimbob2.0
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 11,284
Images: 21
May take a while to shoot out that barrel. Know that high pressure cartridges eat them but what bout 3,000 rounds (I believe that is about what '06 is).
Jimbob2.0 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2009, 04:36 PM   #4
Russ D
Senior Member
 
Russ D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Manchester
Posts: 10,372
Images: 3
Send a message via Yahoo to Russ D
22-250 is pretty hard on barrels and I load mine pretty hot. JSW I got the 1/12 from reading up on shooting 168 gr. bullets at 2800fps will stay supersonic out to 1100 yrds.
Russ D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2009, 05:42 PM   #5
Jaybeez
Senior Member
 
Jaybeez's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2006
Location: Darlington MD
Posts: 4,438
Images: 21
I don't know anything about the tikka action, but if you are re-barreling you want the receiver squared/trued, and the bolt face and lugs lapped too.

With the barrel and labor, you are going to spend close to the price of a rem700 on sale at dicks or cabelas. If you are going to spend the kind of money that will buy another gun, you should end up with two guns imho.


__________________
"For I know the plans I have for you,” declares the Lord, “plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future."
Jaybeez is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2009, 06:13 PM   #6
Russ D
Senior Member
 
Russ D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Manchester
Posts: 10,372
Images: 3
Send a message via Yahoo to Russ D
I have plenty of Rem. 700's and other bolt action rifles. I whant this gun to be special. Tikka Master Sporters are like the little brother of the TRG. I have no problem with pumping 800$ or so into it to make it something special. To buy a new gun and make it comparable would cost probably around 2k$. Plus I doubt you could ever find a smoother action. Besides I plan on waiting until I shoot out the factory barrel so I'd have to rebarrel it anyway.
Russ D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2009, 06:20 PM   #7
leroygibbs
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Posts: 3,195
Images: 1
Russ, you're my hero! I have always drooled over the Tikka Master Sporter (and the Sako "big brother"), and am impressed that someone is talking about shooting out the barrel, instead of letting it sit in a safe for posterity....
leroygibbs is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2009, 06:55 PM   #8
JSW
Senior Member
 
JSW's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2008
Location: Bryansville, Pa.
Posts: 1,648
Images: 1
there are several members here that shoot long range, and a co-worker just finished SF sniper school and all have said to reach out that far they prefer the heavy bullets. Most use the sierra 175 match kings. The military even has a 173 gr in 308 (not for combat) load that is for long range shooting. Since I have problems past 500 the 168's do me just fine. I still like 1/10 in 30 cal for a couple other reasons I won't say on here.
JSW is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2009, 07:02 PM   #9
Russ D
Senior Member
 
Russ D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Manchester
Posts: 10,372
Images: 3
Send a message via Yahoo to Russ D
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSW View Post
there are several members here that shoot long range, and a co-worker just finished SF sniper school and all have said to reach out that far they prefer the heavy bullets. Most use the sierra 175 match kings. The military even has a 173 gr in 308 (not for combat) load that is for long range shooting. Since I have problems past 500 the 168's do me just fine. I still like 1/10 in 30 cal for a couple other reasons I won't say on here.
private message? I'm open to the twist thing. I'll read everything I can before I make my decision. The majortiy of my shooting will be under 500yrds but I'd like to be able to punch out that far.
Russ D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2009, 07:03 PM   #10
Russ D
Senior Member
 
Russ D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Manchester
Posts: 10,372
Images: 3
Send a message via Yahoo to Russ D
Quote:
Originally Posted by leroygibbs View Post
Russ, you're my hero! I have always drooled over the Tikka Master Sporter (and the Sako "big brother"), and am impressed that someone is talking about shooting out the barrel, instead of letting it sit in a safe for posterity....
You are welcome to come shoot it.
Russ D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2009, 08:44 PM   #11
mackie
Dumb Farmer
 
mackie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Cecil County
Posts: 1,146
Images: 1
Depending on how rapid you plan to fire you may be better off with a barrel in the 20''-22'' range to limit wandering when the barrel gets hot.


__________________
Maryland Collector
Amish Outlaw
mackie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2009, 08:53 PM   #12
Russ D
Senior Member
 
Russ D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Manchester
Posts: 10,372
Images: 3
Send a message via Yahoo to Russ D
Quote:
Originally Posted by mackie View Post
Depending on how rapid you plan to fire you may be better off with a barrel in the 20''-22'' range to limit wandering when the barrel gets hot.
I'm not too worried about that. I won't be rapid firing it.
Russ D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2009, 09:05 PM   #13
mackie
Dumb Farmer
 
mackie's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Cecil County
Posts: 1,146
Images: 1
I read an artical last month about long range shooting. Shorter barrels have proven just as accurate as long barrels of the same contour. I was looking to do a Rem 700 SPS Varmit in .308 then decided on the SPS Tactical. Just my 2 cents.


__________________
Maryland Collector
Amish Outlaw
mackie is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 5th, 2009, 09:48 PM   #14
Russ D
Senior Member
 
Russ D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Manchester
Posts: 10,372
Images: 3
Send a message via Yahoo to Russ D
It's not so much accuracy as it is speed. You need the bullets to stay supersonic and they can achieve faster speed in a longer barrel. So with a longer barrel you can potentially get a little more speed which will keep the bullet stable for longer.
Russ D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 6th, 2009, 06:45 AM   #15
E.Shell
 
E.Shell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: In and Out
Posts: 5,051
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D View Post
....What else should I have him to that could potentially help with accuracy?
A good gunsmith will tell you what should be done. He will likely want to check the action for square and true the bolt face & lugs. If you tell him you're looking for match accuracy, he may suggest a Palma '95 reamer or a modified Palma that has a slightly longer throat to enable factory match ammo to chamber w/o contact with the lands.
Quote:
The plan is to shoot out the 22-250 barrel first. but I'd like to have everything in place for when I do. It already has very good optics,mounts, and trigger. It also already shoots .5 MOA.
I have had several rifles that will shoot 1/2 moa with carefully selected loads. Once properly trued, the same rifle will shoot a myriad of loads well, and carefully selected loads into 1/4 moa. This is the real difference on a correctly done rifle and one that is wrong. I have wasted many hours and dollars chasing accuracy in a marginal rifle, while a good rifle will shoot EVERYTHING well.
Quote:
Is a Lilja barrel the way to go? I'd like to be able to possibly push this out to 1k yards. I'm thinking about a 26" 1/12 twist Heavy Varmint taper fluted Lilja barrel.
I think this is a good choice for profile, and 24 to 26" is a good length for the .308. How long is the existing barel and how does it balance for you? Lilja makes a good barrel, and my 6.5-284 1k benchrest rifle/F-Class rifle (that I don't use for F-class, LOL) has a Lilja. I would say that my own next custom barrel will be a Kreiger.
Quote:
Any local gunsmiths up to the task?
There are quite a few accuracy 'smiths around. The only one I know of that is truly "local" is Ed Harren in Ijamsville. That said, Jeff Walker, Clay Spencer and Sandy Garrett, all in VA, all produce great rifles.

One thing I would be concerned about is the mag box length, and your resulting max COAL. The .22-250 is shorter than the .308 family, and even the factory mag box on guns built for .308 are often a little short. If you entertain the notion of getting 2,800+ out of your .308 with 168s, you're almost certainly going to want to seat them long.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JSW View Post
I could be wrong but I believe if you are going to shoot 308 long range it is best done with the heavy 175 + bullets.
With the singe exception of the Lapua 155 Scenar (which has the same BC as a Sierra 175 MatchKing but can be driven 200 fps faster) I am in complete agreement.
Quote:
If that is the case I would go with a 1/10 twist. That is what is on most 30-06, 300 win mag and others of that size. we even have some barrels at work in 1/9.25 for 30 cal work.
I have had 1:10 and 1:12 .308 barrels and either one will stabilize the 175s just fine at .308 velocities. I would personally suggest the 1:12 to provide good performance with the 155 Scenars, which have not shot well in any of my 1:10 barrels. My most recent custom 1:10 barrel shoots 155 Scenars into 3/8 moa with the (low velocity) starting load, but as I add powder and increase velocity, the groups rapidly open to 1-1/2 moa. You're definitely correct that 1:10 is the traditional standard for the bigger 30s, but both the .30-06 and .300WinMag are available with very long bullets weighing more than 200 grains, and the 1:10 is needed for these if we consider the wide variety of barrel lengths available in the dozens of factory guns out there.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D View Post
...JSW I got the 1/12 from reading up on shooting 168 gr. bullets at 2800fps will stay supersonic out to 1100 yrds.
The only 168 I am aware that stands a chance of good performance at .308 velocities is the Hornady 168 A-Max. In any event, I would not count on being able to find an accurate and stable load that will deliver 2,800+ from a reasonable length .308 barrel. Further, even a stable 168 like the Hornady will lag far behind the heavier bullets in resisting wind deflection, and anyone who shoots long will tell you that the wind is Public Enemy #1. The only light bullet I'd even begin to compare to a 175 with respect to wind drift would be the 155 Scenar, and while a fast 155 provides substantial advantage in drop rates, the drift barely equals the 175 unless driven to 2,950+.

I would point out that many rifles stabilize bullets more or less than others, and a very slight amount of in-bore yaw will cause reduced BC until the bullets goes to sleep, but by then the damage has been done and the bullet will drop and drift more than the ballistic software would suggest. I would be careful to understand that theorizing on paper is just that: theorizing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jaybeez View Post
I don't know anything about the tikka action, but if you are re-barreling you want the receiver squared/trued, and the bolt face and lugs lapped too.
Good advice, and the 'smith will be able to evaluate this. While many rifles are quite ugly with regard to these parameters, others do leave the factory in pretty good shape.
Quote:
With the barrel and labor, you are going to spend close to the price of a rem700 on sale at dicks or cabelas. If you are going to spend the kind of money that will buy another gun, you should end up with two guns imho.
Even a new 700 will require truing and a large amount of additional cost over the purchase price.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mackie View Post
Depending on how rapid you plan to fire you may be better off with a barrel in the 20''-22'' range to limit wandering when the barrel gets hot.
True when we discuss mass produced lightweight barrels, but a good quality, properly stress relieved barrel on a properly bedded action will not change point of impact with reasonable heat excursions.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mackie View Post
I read an artical last month about long range shooting. Shorter barrels have proven just as accurate as long barrels of the same contour. I was looking to do a Rem 700 SPS Varmit in .308 then decided on the SPS Tactical. Just my 2 cents.
Given the same contour, a shorter barrel is stiffer than a longer barrel, and usually delivers better accuracy. Many top (short range) benchrest rifles are 20" or shorter.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Russ D View Post
It's not so much accuracy as it is speed. You need the bullets to stay supersonic and they can achieve faster speed in a longer barrel. So with a longer barrel you can potentially get a little more speed which will keep the bullet stable for longer.
This is true, and there is also the improved stability provided by the greater mass. A heavier barrel is easier to shoot well in the field than a light one. It is more forgiving of shooter error, prolongs the recoil pulse and provides less disturbance of the shooting position, which promotes consistency. That said, with most powders, barrels beyond 24" can be at the point of diminishing returns and will be somewhat less portable and balance can be compromised. A rifle that is muzzle heavy on the rest will be very difficult to shoot without producing vertical dispersion.


__________________
Ed

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

"None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free" J. W. Von Goethe

Central Virginia Tactical Long Range Precision

Maryland Shall Issue Executive Member
E.Shell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 6th, 2009, 02:20 PM   #16
Russ D
Senior Member
 
Russ D's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Manchester
Posts: 10,372
Images: 3
Send a message via Yahoo to Russ D
Thanks for all the info Ed. It seems I'm on the right path here. I checked and Tikka only offers one short action mag. Whether or not it will feed longer bullets I have no idea but I doubt there are any other options without changing the stock which I'm definitely not interested in doing. The current barrel is 24" so I think the 26" will be fine balance wise, but if there is no benefit I would rather have a 24". I will look into the Krieger barrels. Any chance you can give me an OAL of one of your 175 .308 loads so I can check it in relation to my mag?
Russ D is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 6th, 2009, 09:22 PM   #17
E.Shell
 
E.Shell's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: In and Out
Posts: 5,051
I load everything .308 to SAAMI max (2.800") since I'm running a factory mag box on one of the .308s and I don't feel like changing the die between guns.


__________________
Ed

The beatings will continue until morale improves.

"None are so hopelessly enslaved as those who falsely believe they are free" J. W. Von Goethe

Central Virginia Tactical Long Range Precision

Maryland Shall Issue Executive Member
E.Shell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old July 12th, 2009, 12:11 AM   #18
armed ferret
Banned
 
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: McDoogal's
Posts: 7,792
Lapua 155 Scenars will run supersonic to 1200 yards, possibly a bit further.

I've got a remington short action (was a 5R till the throat got too long ) at a smith's right now being trued/rebarreled with a Brux stainless M40-contour. doing a 1-11 twist, which is fine for 175's (M40A3 is 1-11.25 and the M118LR they use is 175-grain). If you want to shoot 180's or heavier, then that's where a 1-10 comes in handy. Although my 5R shot 180's sub MOA out to 400 yards.

and if you really wanna stretch with it, you could always hit up the Moly on the 155's. that's good for another 75-100 fps, depending on the iron...
armed ferret is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

  Home Page > Forum List > The Arsenal > Rifles


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:17 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
© 2013, Maryland Shooters, LLC