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Old September 25th, 2013, 01:03 AM   #161
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Originally Posted by Patrick View Post
Your concern is absolutely spot on.

The MSP does not act on these issues unless directed specifically by the Gov's office. Gansler and he don't always get along, so I suspect some fireworks behind scenes. That said, the AG might have driven this.

Go look at yesterday's hearing. This is not happening in a vacuum. They effed up and are trying to get out of jail, but nothing short of holding the entire licensing statute will work.

This is desperation. It is not enough.

And keep the reassure on. IMHO,If we do not get an injection we must apply for HQL's and hold them to the 30 day window..


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Old September 25th, 2013, 01:12 AM   #162
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Go ahead and pay for the privilege of having them invade your privacy, infringe on your rights, and treat you like a criminal.
short term thinking ... proceed as you will ..


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Old September 25th, 2013, 01:26 AM   #163
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We should not be enabling their improper behavior.

How many of us condemn the US AG and ICE for not enforcing the immigration laws? This is no different, just because it is a law we disagree with.

By not making them adhere to the standards they should, we are giving approval for them to ignore the law in the future.

They should not be able to ignore the law, just because it makes things easier for them.
Look once you submit an app the law that applies must not change until that app complicates. This is a basic principle of law designed to prevent time loop scenarios like in sci fi.

All that's happening here is that they discovering a standard legal practice of not changing terms in the middle of a transaction. If we apply pre 1 oct law then you don't need a the HQL to pick up. But if we apply post 1 oct law then the app is invalid and we all need to get the hQL before we can resubmit the application. MD is finally getting a clue about standard legal construction and deciding that the law governing the contract is the law that was enforce at the time it was drafted. This is not even a close call, since the change in the law effectively voids the contract. Had the MGA competent legal consul this would have been made explicit.

Personally, I would prefer that MD get bitch slapped by a federal court over this, and that may yet happen, but they are just conceding what the court would likely force anyway.





I am not a laywer , so feel free to ignore me ..


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Old September 25th, 2013, 01:32 AM   #164
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklyn View Post

Look once you submit an app the law that applies must not change until that app complicates. This is a basic principle of law designed to prevent time loop scenarios like in sci fi.

All that's happening here is that they discovering a standard legal practice of not changing terms in the middle of a transaction. If we apply pre 1 oct law then you don't need a the HQL to pick up. But if we apply post 1 oct law then the app is invalid and we all need to get the hQL before we can resubmit the application. MD is finally getting a clue about standard legal construction and deciding that the law governing the contract is the law that was enforce at the time it was drafted. This is not even a close call, since the change in the law effectively voids the contract. Had the MGA competent legal consul this would have been made explicit.

Personally, I would prefer that MD get bitch slapped by a federal court over this, and that may yet happen, but they are just conceding what the court would likely force anyway.

I am not a laywer , so feel free to ignore me ..
Then hold a special session and fix it. The Governor has the ability to call one.

Took them 5 months and 21 days to read what they passed. BS
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Old September 25th, 2013, 01:52 AM   #165
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brooklyn View Post
Look once you submit an app the law that applies must not change until that app complicates. This is a basic principle of law designed to prevent time loop scenarios like in sci fi.

All that's happening here is that they discovering a standard legal practice of not changing terms in the middle of a transaction. If we apply pre 1 oct law then you don't need a the HQL to pick up. But if we apply post 1 oct law then the app is invalid and we all need to get the hQL before we can resubmit the application. MD is finally getting a clue about standard legal construction and deciding that the law governing the contract is the law that was enforce at the time it was drafted. This is not even a close call, since the change in the law effectively voids the contract. Had the MGA competent legal consul this would have been made explicit.

Personally, I would prefer that MD get bitch slapped by a federal court over this, and that may yet happen, but they are just conceding what the court would likely force anyway.





I am not a laywer , so feel free to ignore me ..
Why are you people still awake? At least I got an excuse: waiting on inputs from California to a document due in the morning. Those people are still 'early'.

As to your point: this ain't about contract law. The state firearms regs are public safety inspired. No contract need apply, even one they might have entered into with you (I say 'might' because the 77R is not a contract). The state can exercise its public safety rubric to do what they want. That means they can interrupt private contract. Your recourse is a civil court, but that ain't going nowhere anywhere in modern USA. Not even Texas.

The MSP is pretty much thumbing their nose at the law as we understood it yesterday. They are basically saying that we are wrong, the AG is wrong and they are right. OK. Just a few short months ago a lot of people here said that they read the law the way the MSP just did. I am curious what the AG does and if he is on board. Or even driving it.


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Old September 25th, 2013, 02:00 AM   #166
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Originally Posted by ShallNotInfringe View Post
Then hold a special session and fix it. The Governor has the ability to call one.

Took them 5 months and 21 days to read what they passed. BS
True ..

Best hope the court tosses the whole mess because the court can not give a simple declaratory judgement on the questions we have been asking here. Problem is we loose standing to reach the constitutional questions and the next bill is much worse and Scalia is not on the court to hear it.


Most likely case the state responds to our request for inductive relief by stipulating most of regs and the MSP memo and the court blesses it. This becomes our case law.

Md is a common law and case law state ( shocking to consider how backward that is ) whose legislature is in fact a part time legislature, and frankly it shows.

So this is what I think will happen not what I want, but remember we need the law in some form to take effect to get standing ..


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Old September 25th, 2013, 02:09 AM   #167
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Why are you people still awake? At least I got an excuse: waiting on inputs from California to a document due in the morning. Those people are still 'early'.

As to your point: this ain't about contract law. The state firearms regs are public safety inspired. No contract need apply, even one they might have entered into with you (I say 'might' because the 77R is not a contract). The state can exercise its public safety rubric to do what they want. That means they can interrupt private contract. Your recourse is a civil court, but that ain't going nowhere anywhere in modern USA. Not even Texas.

The MSP is pretty much thumbing their nose at the law as we understood it yesterday. They are basically saying that we are wrong, the AG is wrong and they are right. OK. Just a few short months ago a lot of people here said that they read the law the way the MSP just did. I am curious what the AG does and if he is on board. Or even driving it.

Yep they can void the contract. But they are spiting the baby. Trying to have one law apply at the start and one at the end. Messy at best.

A well crafted law would deal with boundary conditions just as we as Software people and systems engineers do.
The problem as I see it is that it is not possible to comply with the law fully without time travel.

Only the court, or the legislature can clean this up. Many will be in limbo until the court rules..


I never sleep... when the court rules then we can sleep just kiding

Thanks for standing the watch ..


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Old September 25th, 2013, 02:46 AM   #168
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Yep they can void the contract. But they are spiting the baby. Trying to have one law apply at the start and one at the end. Messy at best.

A well crafted law would deal with boundary conditions just as we as Software people and systems engineers do.
The problem as I see it is that it is not possible to comply with the law fully without time travel.

Only the court, or the legislature can clean this up. Many will be in limbo until the court rules..


I never sleep... when the court rules then we can sleep just kiding

Thanks for standing the watch ..
If you think the legislature is the answer, then brother you need some sleep.


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Old September 25th, 2013, 05:30 AM   #169
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I was tired last night and didn't go online. This is crazy stuff! "We'll pass a law, then ignore and re-interpret parts of it."

SB281 was a badly written law. The regulations and MSP have not improved it.


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Old September 25th, 2013, 05:35 AM   #170
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Originally Posted by pilotguy299 View Post
The MSP isn't the only agency that can enforce firearms laws. And they certainly don't have the authority to decline prosecution.

Can the AG legally stop a local State's Attorney from prosecuting a case?
Don't SA work for the AG? If he tells MSP it's OK, what SA is going to prosecute anyone?

Your scenario seems implausible to me.
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Old September 25th, 2013, 06:42 AM   #171
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Don't SA work for the AG? If he tells MSP it's OK, what SA is going to prosecute anyone?

Your scenario seems implausible to me.
No, they don't. They are elected officials of their county.
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Old September 25th, 2013, 06:44 AM   #172
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Don't SA work for the AG? If he tells MSP it's OK, what SA is going to prosecute anyone?

Your scenario seems implausible to me.
Last I checked, each county elects their own SA and they work for the people.

They may fall under AG jurisdiction, but, they are an independent arm of his control.

Another DINO thought, any SA willing to prosecute folks on this bill should be primaries and booted out. Nullification isn't just for county councils and juries.


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Old September 25th, 2013, 07:14 AM   #173
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I don't know what to think about this... (a little closer to 50 posts).
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Old September 25th, 2013, 07:18 AM   #174
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This is what now is posted on MSP webpage under FAQ about the handgun license. - Looks like they changed some wording, and are unsure! Also the FAQ states the HQL will be available PRIOR to Oct 1 - doesnt seem the case, and your 2a rights are going to be delayed (add this to a lawsuit please!)

Here is the link:

https://www.mdsp.org/Organization/Su...ense/FAQs.aspx

Cut and paste of the page - someone may want to print the screen to see if they keep changing things again:


Frequently Asked Questions










Q. How do I apply for a Handgun Qualification License?

A. Prior to October 1, 2013, the application process will be automated on the Maryland State Police Licensing Division webpage.

Q. How will a firearms dealer know that I have a Handgun Qualification License?

A. The Maryland State Police will issue a Handgun Qualification License to present to the dealer.

Q. How do I register to instruct the Firearms Safety Training Course?

A. Prior to October 1, 2013, the registration process will be automated on the Maryland State Police Licensing Division webpage.

Q. How does a new resident register a regulated firearm?

A. Prior to October 1, 2013, the registration process will be automated on the Maryland State Police Licensing Division webpage.

Q. Are shotguns or rifles regulated firearms?

A. Although most shotguns and rifles are not regulated, some are, based on their characteristics. Specific questions regarding the registration can be emailed to msp.firearmsregistration@maryland.gov

Q: Will I be required to possess an HQL by October 1, 2013, if I submitted a 77R prior to October 1 and have not yet received approval to retrieve my firearm due to the MSP backlog?

A: The Maryland State Police is currently seeking advice regarding this answer. Once a response has been received, an MSP Licensing Division Advisory will be issued.


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Old September 25th, 2013, 07:22 AM   #175
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Originally Posted by Deep Creek Rock View Post
This is what now is posted on MSP webpage under FAQ about the handgun license. - Looks like they changed some wording, and are unsure! Also the FAQ states the HQL will be available PRIOR to Oct 1 - doesnt seem the case, and your 2a rights are going to be delayed (add this to a lawsuit please!)

Here is the link:

https://www.mdsp.org/Organization/Su...ense/FAQs.aspx

Cut and paste of the page - someone may want to print the screen to see if they keep changing things again:


Frequently Asked Questions










Q. How do I apply for a Handgun Qualification License?

A. Prior to October 1, 2013, the application process will be automated on the Maryland State Police Licensing Division webpage.

Q. How will a firearms dealer know that I have a Handgun Qualification License?

A. The Maryland State Police will issue a Handgun Qualification License to present to the dealer.

Q. How do I register to instruct the Firearms Safety Training Course?

A. Prior to October 1, 2013, the registration process will be automated on the Maryland State Police Licensing Division webpage.

Q. How does a new resident register a regulated firearm?

A. Prior to October 1, 2013, the registration process will be automated on the Maryland State Police Licensing Division webpage.

Q. Are shotguns or rifles regulated firearms?

A. Although most shotguns and rifles are not regulated, some are, based on their characteristics. Specific questions regarding the registration can be emailed to msp.firearmsregistration@maryland.gov

Q: Will I be required to possess an HQL by October 1, 2013, if I submitted a 77R prior to October 1 and have not yet received approval to retrieve my firearm due to the MSP backlog?

A: The Maryland State Police is currently seeking advice regarding this answer. Once a response has been received, an MSP Licensing Division Advisory will be issued.
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Old September 25th, 2013, 07:24 AM   #176
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Deep Creek Rock View Post
This is what now is posted on MSP webpage under FAQ about the handgun license. - Looks like they changed some wording, and are unsure! Also the FAQ states the HQL will be available PRIOR to Oct 1 - doesnt seem the case, and your 2a rights are going to be delayed (add this to a lawsuit please!)

Here is the link:

https://www.mdsp.org/Organization/Su...ense/FAQs.aspx

Cut and paste of the page - someone may want to print the screen to see if they keep changing things again:


Frequently Asked Questions

...


Q: Will I be required to possess an HQL by October 1, 2013, if I submitted a 77R prior to October 1 and have not yet received approval to retrieve my firearm due to the MSP backlog?

A: The Maryland State Police is currently seeking advice regarding this answer. Once a response has been received, an MSP Licensing Division Advisory will be issued.
And they are trusted to determine what is "Good and Substantial".

If this and the 77r debacle isn't enough to show that the organization can not make good decisions related to firearms, what would?
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Old September 25th, 2013, 07:24 AM   #177
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I think MSP did this for 2 reasosn

1. To reduce damage from the lawsuit that is coming. (Probably won't help)
2. To reduce the onslaught of HQL applications they know they are going to get if purchasers who have orders in don't have to comply.

I don't see prosecutions as a realistic scenario if MSP says it's not going to enforce the law.

IANAL.
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Old September 25th, 2013, 07:26 AM   #178
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...

I don't see prosecutions as a realistic scenario if MSP says it's not going to enforce the law.

IANAL.
You are probably correct. But that doesn't discount the fact that they are saying it is OK to disobey the law, because it makes things easier on them.
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Old September 25th, 2013, 07:27 AM   #179
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The sad part is just days ago that same FAQ stated you WILL NEED the HQL, to pick up a handgun purchased before Oct 1, but picked up after that date.

To make matters worse - personel down at MSP in Pikesville, told one of my FFL I deal with that an HQL will be needed to pick up ANY regulated item (requiring a 77R) they had to turn down customers, and their business probably is taking a hit from misinformation.


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Old September 25th, 2013, 07:27 AM   #180
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Q: Will I be required to possess an HQL by October 1, 2013, if I submitted a 77R prior to October 1 and have not yet received approval to retrieve my firearm due to the MSP backlog?

A: The Maryland State Police is currently seeking advice regarding this answer. Once a response has been received, an MSP Licensing Division Advisory will be issued.
So they are already backing away from last night's press release?


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