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Old August 24th, 2013, 08:24 PM   #181
Crab Bait
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Originally Posted by Norton View Post
For all of you wonks that have actually studied this abortion of a law, is there any language in there that authorizes this?

Have I missed something in this thread or another?
Remember that it all falls under this:

Quote:
Handgun Qualification License

Unless otherwise exempt, as of October 1, 2013, a person must possess a valid Handgun Qualification License before they may purchase, rent, or receive a handgun. Details on exemptions may be found below.
So it doesn't mean that you need an HQL to continue to own your guns... just if you want to purchase, rent, or receive one. Did you see the "Sons of Liberty" thing too?


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Old August 25th, 2013, 04:27 AM   #182
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Originally Posted by Crab Bait View Post
Authorizes what?

The red part about not needing the training if you already own? That has been my understanding all along.
Requirement for the possession of the HQL if you >already< have a regulated firearm even if you do not purchase one post-10/1.


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Old August 25th, 2013, 04:40 AM   #183
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So it doesn't mean that you need an HQL to continue to own your guns... just if you want to purchase, rent, or receive one.
This is the language I'm getting hung up on because it doesn't fall under the exemptions, but falls under the mandate. It says who must have a HQL. The first sentence is wholly separate from the second.

Quote:
Lawfully owns a regulated firearm. If you already own a handgun or assault weapon prior to October 1, 2013, you do not have to complete the training to apply for the Handgun Qualification License.
So, if we make it like this:

Quote:
Required to have the HQL, but exempt from the training component

6. Lawfully owns a regulated firearm. If you already own a handgun or assault weapon prior to October 1, 2013, you do not have to complete the training to apply for the Handgun Qualification License.
In a complete sentence, it says, "You are required to have an HQL if you lawfully own a regulated firearm."

Now, I'll concede that this is just a poorly-worded and probably good faith effort on the part of the MSP because I was under the same frame of mind as everyone else with regards to not needing an HQL for anything prior to 10/1.

OTOH...there's two things that need to be addressed here:

1. If it's just a poorly worded good faith effort, it needs to be reworded. I'm guessing this to be the most likely scenario. This state has a terrible track record on poorly worded laws and poorly worded procedures. Just look at the transport laws and the fictitious loaded magazine laws. There is a huge schism there between what the laws say and how they are applied. Some departments accept as doctrine that loaded magazines equate loaded guns. That law does not exist.

2. If it's something more nefarious and they are trying to, through interpretation, create law where none exists, it needs to be attacked for the same reasons as #1 above. if they indeed intend to force pre-10/1 owners to get an HQL without authorization in the law to do so, then they are trying to interpret the law to their benefit.


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Old August 25th, 2013, 04:41 AM   #184
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Did you see the "Sons of Liberty" thing too?[
I get so many things across my screen everyday, I have no idea where a lot of it comes from.

Are they tied into the CFL crowd?


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Old August 25th, 2013, 06:41 AM   #185
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Quote:
1. If it's just a poorly worded good faith effort, it needs to be reworded. I'm guessing this to be the most likely scenario. This state has a terrible track record on poorly worded laws and poorly worded procedures. Just look at the transport laws and the fictitious loaded magazine laws. There is a huge schism there between what the laws say and how they are applied. Some departments accept as doctrine that loaded magazines equate loaded guns. That law does not exist.

2. If it's something more nefarious and they are trying to, through interpretation, create law where none exists, it needs to be attacked for the same reasons as #1 above. if they indeed intend to force pre-10/1 owners to get an HQL without authorization in the law to do so, then they are trying to interpret the law to their benefit.
These are the main points, as I see it.

If they try to compel HQL simply for owning handguns, they're on very shaky ground, especially when the language doesn't support it (or is ambiguous, at best).

But, as you know better than most, these people are going to try every angle, and wrest every ounce

If they can't do it legislatively, they'll try it administratively... and hope smart people don't catch on and challenge it.


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Old August 25th, 2013, 06:55 AM   #186
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If they can't do it legislatively, they'll try it administratively... and hope smart people don't catch on and challenge it.
That's the big concern that I have, presuming that it's not a simple error in wording.

If they say it enough times, everyone begins to believe it.


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Old August 25th, 2013, 08:25 AM   #187
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msp took the link down

http://www.mdsp.org/Organization/Sup...onLicense.aspx


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Old August 25th, 2013, 08:26 AM   #188
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The info on the MSP site (currently taken down if you try to access it) is flat out wrong. MSP admits this. See correspondence I had with them on this topic. Most recent email from LT Cook is 15 AUG.

"Again you are correct. The web master has not made the correction as of yet. The site you are visiting is under construction. The active site is mdsp.org, although your comments are appreciated on the site under construction. Correct it is not needed for possession. The HQL is not needed to possess, only to receive....ect a handgun.
Thank you,

John G. Cook- Lieutenant



On Thu, Aug 15, 2013 at 3:52 PM, <xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
LT Cook,

Thank you for your response 6 days ago. I note the site has not been corrected. I did not point it out in my previous email, but this statement is also incorrect:
"If you own a regulated firearm prior to October 1, 2013, you must apply for the Handgun Qualification License. However, you are exempt from the training component."

There is nothing in SB281 that says if you own a regulated firearm prior to 1 OCT you have to apply for the HQL. HQLs are only needed for purchase, rental (taken off the renter's property) or receipt (transfer). Mere possession of a pre-owned regulated handgun does not require anyone to apply for an HQL.

-----Original Message-----
From: John G Cook -State Police- <john.cook@maryland.gov>
To: xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Sent: Fri, Aug 9, 2013 2:08 pm
Subject: Re: Incorrect info posted on the MSP website

Your feedback and review of the information is appreciated. You are absolutely correct and the page will be amended.

Please email me back any other comments.

Respectfully,

John G. Cook- Lieutenant


On Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 1:26 PM, MSP Licensing -State Police- <msp.licensing@maryland.gov> wrote:
---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: <xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
Date: Fri, Aug 9, 2013 at 9:23 AM
Subject: Incorrect info posted on the MSP website
To: msp.Licensing@maryland.gov

Why on your web site (http://www.mdsp.org/Organization/Sup...onLicense.aspx) do you omit retired military from the list of exemptions for a requirement to have a Handgun Qualification License? Are you making this up as you go along?
"A person may not purchase, rent, or receive a handgun after October 1, 2013 unless they possess a valid Handgun Qualification License (HQL) issued by the Maryland State Police or qualify for exemption status.

Exceptions to possession of the HQL License

1. A Licensed Firearms Manufacturer.

2. Active law enforcement officer or a person retired in good standing from a law enforcement agency of the United States, the State, or a local law enforcement agency of the State.

3. A person purchasing, renting or receiving an antique, curio or relic as defined in federal law."

Per SB281: (http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/2013RS/bills/sb/sb0281E.pdf)

5–117.1

(A) THIS SECTION DOES NOT APPLY TO:

(1) A LICENSED FIREARMS MANUFACTURER;

(2) A LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICER OR PERSON WHO IS RETIRED IN GOOD STANDING FROM SERVICE WITH A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF THE UNITED STATES, THE STATE, OR A LOCAL LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OF THE STATE;

(3) A MEMBER OR RETIRED MEMBER OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES OR, OR THE NATIONAL GUARD OR

(4) A PERSON PURCHASING, RENTING, OR RECEIVING AN 28 ANTIQUE, CURIO, OR RELIC FIREARM, AS DEFINED IN FEDERAL LAW OR IN 29 DETERMINATIONS PUBLISHED BY THE BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, 30 FIREARMS AND EXPLOSIVES.

Section (C) of 5-117.1 goes on to say:
(C) A PERSON MAY PURCHASE, RENT, OR RECEIVE A HANDGUN ONLY IF THE PERSON:

(1) (I) POSSESSES A VALID HANDGUN QUALIFICATION LICENSE ISSUED TO THE PERSON BY THE SECRETARY IN ACCORDANCE WITH THIS SECTION;

(II) POSSESSES VALID CREDENTIALS FROM A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY OR RETIREMENT CREDENTIALS FROM A LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCY;

(III) IS AN ACTIVE OR RETIRED MEMBER OF THE ARMED FORCES OF THE UNITED STATES OR, OR THE NATIONAL GUARD, AND POSSESSES A VALID MILITAR IDENTIFICATION CARD; OR

(IV) IS PURCHASING, RENTING, OR RECEIVING AN ANTIQUE, CURIO, OR RELIC FIREARM, AS DEFINED IN FEDERAL LAW OR IN DETERMINATIONS PUBLISHED BY THE BUREAU OF ALCOHOL, TOBACCO, FIREARMS AND EXPLOSIVES; AND

(2) IS NOT OTHERWISE PROHIBITED FROM PURCHASING OR 23 POSSESSING A HANDGUN UNDER STATE OR FEDERAL LAW."










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Old August 25th, 2013, 08:31 AM   #189
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They tossed in that "live fire" component. That's not in the bill.
I think the law gives msp authority to determine what training qualifies. backdoor.

it should be challenged considering that it was debated and removed from the bill legislatively.


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Old August 25th, 2013, 08:48 AM   #190
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I think the law gives msp authority to determine what training qualifies. backdoor.

it should be challenged considering that it was debated and removed from the bill legislatively.
Not really back door. It appears the intent was to give the Secretary full discretion on what training is required except for the clear exemptions outlined in the bill.

(G) AN APPLICANT FOR A HANDGUN QUALIFICATION LICENSE SHALL SUBMIT TO THE SECRETARY:
(1) AN APPLICATION IN THE MANNER AND FORMAT DESIGNATED BY THE SECRETARY;
(2) A NONREFUNDABLE APPLICATION FEE TO COVER THE COSTS TO ADMINISTER THE PROGRAM OF UP TO $50;
(3) (I) PROOF OF SATISFACTORY COMPLETION OF:
1. A FIREARMS SAFETY TRAINING COURSE APPROVED BY THE SECRETARY; OR
2. A COURSE OF INSTRUCTION IN COMPETENCY AND SAFETY IN THE HANDLING OF FIREARMS PRESCRIBED BY THE DEPARTMENT OF NATURAL RESOURCES UNDER § 10–301.1 OF THE NATURAL RESOURCES ARTICLE or; . . ."

So, if the Secretary determines live fire is part of showing evidence of competency and safety, it looks like he has carte blanche to do so.


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Old August 25th, 2013, 08:49 AM   #191
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You can't make this stuff up.


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Old August 25th, 2013, 08:51 AM   #192
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Originally Posted by spclopr8tr View Post
The info on the MSP site (currently taken down if you try to access it) is flat out wrong. MSP admits this. See correspondence I had with them on this topic. Most recent email from LT Cook is 15 AUG.

"Again you are correct. The web master has not made the correction as of yet. The site you are visiting is under construction. The active site is mdsp.org, although your comments are appreciated on the site under construction. Correct it is not needed for possession. The HQL is not needed to possess, only to receive....ect a handgun.
Thank you,

John G. Cook- Lieutenant


Good stuff. That's one that I missed somewhere and why I was asking.


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Old August 25th, 2013, 08:53 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by Norton View Post
You can't make this stuff up.
No information is better than bad/wrong information.


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Old August 25th, 2013, 09:19 AM   #194
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281 doesn't specify live fire.for the HQL but does for the carry permit.. Although you may be right about discretion.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.p...56&postcount=3
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Old August 25th, 2013, 09:31 AM   #195
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281 doesn't specify live fire.for the HQL but does for the carry permit.. Although you may be right about discretion.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.p...56&postcount=3
Similar discussion in another thread does state for the HQL training, one round must be fired:

http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=129467


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Old August 25th, 2013, 09:35 AM   #196
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Understood but how does MSP interpreting that? The law does not mention live fire as I pointed out.

But you may be right. The Secretary may be allowed discretion to interpret but it doesn't say that for the HQL, as I read it. IANAL.

MODS-thread merge?
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Old August 25th, 2013, 09:39 AM   #197
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Understood but how does MSP interpreting that? The law does not mention live fire as I pointed out.

But you may be right. The Secretary may be allowed discretion to interpret but it doesn't say that for the HQL, as I read it. IANAL.

MODS-thread merge?
Seems pretty clear to me. The law leaves a lot to "as determined or as approved" by the Secretary.

The Firearm's Safety Training Course, for the Handgun Qualification License, shall consist of a minimum of four (4) hours of instruction and affirms the applicant's safe operation of the firearm which requires firing at least one round of ammunition. Qualified Handgun Instructors, interested in providing training for either the H.Q.L. or Maryland State Police Handgun Wear and Carry Permit, should begin to prepare a course syllabus that satisfies the basic requirements. Firearm's Safety Training Courses for the Handgun Qualification License must include instruction on:
State's Firearm Law All courses must include an overview of the State's firearm laws, including a discussion regarding what constitutes a regulated firearm, how to properly purchase or transfer a firearm, where applicants are permitted to carry or transport a firearm, when it is necessary to possess a wear and carry permit, and who is prohibited from possessing firearms.
Home Firearm Safety- All courses must include an overview of handgun and firearm safety in the home, including a discussion regarding access to minors, locking and storing of firearms, and the proper use of safety devices, to include lock boxes and safes.
Handgun Mechanisms and Operation - All courses must include the firing of at least one (1) round of ammunition, an overview of the proper operation and safe handling of a handgun, including cleaning and maintenance, the loading and unloading of ammunition, and the differences between revolvers and semi-automatic handguns.


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Old August 25th, 2013, 12:57 PM   #198
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Originally Posted by Norton View Post
I get so many things across my screen everyday, I have no idea where a lot of it comes from.

Are they tied into the CFL crowd?
From Maryland Sons of Liberty facebook page...


Quote:
Maryland Sons of Liberty shared a link.

19 hours ago.


Much confusion on the FQL for Maryland.

Handgun Qualification License Training

If you own a regulated firearm prior to October 1, 2013, you must apply for the Handgun Qualification License. However, you are exempt from the training component.

http://www.mdsp.org/Organization/Sup...onLicense.aspx


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Old August 25th, 2013, 01:00 PM   #199
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That's just SoL regurgitating incorrect information.


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Old August 25th, 2013, 01:32 PM   #200
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That's just SoL regurgitating incorrect information.
Oh, I agree, I was just trying to explain what I had been referring to.


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