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Old December 2nd, 2008, 07:52 PM   #1
MauiWowie
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Question: Explain Short Reset Trigger or SRT

What is Short Reset Trigger or SRT how do I use it?

What exactly is Double action how do I use it?

What is Single Action how do I use it?

Thanks


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Old December 2nd, 2008, 08:01 PM   #2
alucard0822
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These are performance aspects of a trigger setup, SA or DA are different types of triggers.

When a trigger is pulled, the initial movement is called takeup, and basically tensions the firing mechanism, and begins to pull the sear from the hammer or striker in preparatio for release. Next is the break, the small ammount of movement that actually releases the hammer or striker to hit the primer, and fire the shell. After the trigger breaks and the sear is pulled completely out of the path of the hammer/striker any additional rearward movement is called overtravel untill the trigger hits a screw, frame, or bottoms out and is stopped. Immediately after the pistol fires and the slide moves rearward, the disconnector either disconnects the physical link between the trigger and sear allowing the sear to fall back into place to hold back the tension in the main hammer or striker spring preventing the hammer from falling, or catches the hammer before it can fall again. If the hammer were allowed to fall again, you basically have a machine gun that would continue to fire round after round untill the trigger was released. Reset occurs next, the pistol cycles so fast that it is almost impossible to release the trigger before the disconector prevents a second shot, but the trigger must be reset in order to move the disconnector out of the way, and allow the trigger to re-establish the connection with the sear or release the hammer from the disconnector, and allow it to fall safely onto the sear. For this, the trigger must be allowed to move forward or release somewhat, this is the reset, basically the minimum ammount of forward movement needed to set the trigger for another shot.

Trigger pull weight can also be fairly steady, or increase incrementally up to the point before the trigger breaks, or even have a "2 stage pull" where it has a light steady pull weight for takeup, then requires a greater force to move it the miniscule ammount needed to release the sear. This is where some pistols have a better pull for a specific purpose. A very short takeup, with a very abrupt and clean break with little to no overtravel is what most people can fire most consistently, and is found on match target pistols, namely 1911s, the trigger design lends itself well to this very short ammount of pull, because, as a single action the trigger merely releases the hammer. The downside to this is the possibility of accidentally firing in a stressful situation, or the fairly frequent maintenence required to keep the trigger reliable and properly tuned. A longer takeup especially with a "2 stage" pull that may have a takup of 4lbs, and a heavier 6lb break reduces the likelyhood that the trigger would be pulled by accident, and if the reset is fairly short, you would only have to repeat the short 6lb break pull to fire again for quick follow up shots, this is the action a Glock would use. A small spring assists the sear in pulling the striker back from rest aggainst the tension of the main striker spring keeping the weight a fairly light 3lbs but a long .5" of travel, then when the sear has reached the end of it's rearward travel, the assisting spring has no more effect as the sear hits a ramp that directs it downwards pulling it away from the striker, this requires more force, and while very short, perhaps only .05", the weight needed to break the trigger is doubled, the trigger then breaks, allows the striker to drop, the pistol to fire, then the disconnector allows the sear to jump back up to catch the tab on the striker and hold it rearward as the slide chambers another round, and because the firing action has already pulled the striker fully rearward, only a short .1" reset is needed to re engage the sear on the ramp, at which point it can be pulled rearward again and fired.

As far as the whole "single action" vs "double action", they work well to describe most revolvers and hammer fired pistols, but come up short with some of the newer designs, especially striker fired pistols, or "partial cocked double actions".

Technically a single action trigger performs the single action of releasing a hammer, this is true in a standard 1911 pistol, or a Colt single action revolver. In the case of the 1911, the hammer is cocked by the slide moving rearwards for each shot. The single action revolvers hammer must be pulled back manually for each shot.

A double action is where the trigger both cocks the hammer, and releases it, this is used in doule action revolvers like the S&W 686, or double action pistols like aeretta 92 where the trigger weight has to overcome the force of the hammer spring resulting in a longer heavier pull, the difference being the revolver has the same pull every time where the Beretta 's slide cocks the hammer ater the first shot, and is a liht short single action pull for every other shot. Some pistols will actually allow the hammer to fall back into a rest position after the slide moves into battery where it requires a single action pull for every shot, this is more consistent, and does not require switching from a long heavy first pull to a short light 2nd pull as most SA/DA pistols have.

A striker fired pistol may be technically simgle action, double action, or a combintion of the two, as the Glock has a spring to assist the cocking of the striker, making for a light but long pull, and if the trigger is released completely after every shot, this would be the same pull on every shot, but in the interest of fast follow up shots, the pistol can be kept partially cocked if the trigger is held, and only released the small distance needed to reset for follow up shots with a pull that is similar to that of a single action. Many newer service pistols use a design similar to this, the S&W M&P has a small wedge that is pulled down to allow the striker to fall, however the shape of the wedge actually pushes the striker back a short distance before it drops out of the way, making it 3/4 single action, 1/4 double action, as the striker is cocked about 3/4 of the way every time, this design makes the initial takeup much shorter than the Glock, and has a feel similar to a single action even if the trigger is released completely after every shot.

There are also designs like the HK LEM trigger, that cocks a small hammer aggainst a heavy spring using the action of the slide, while the exposed 2nd hammer has a light spring overcome by the trigger, then when the trigger breaks, both springs push the exposed hammer forward forward and fire the pistol, so technically it has both a single action and a double action mechanism, and when the trigger is held rearward, the main hammer stays back, allowing a short reset, and both hammers act as single action, if the trigger is released the main hammer is decocked, and the secondary hammer remains cocked, however if a round does not fire, the trigger has to compress both springs, and cock both hammers resulting in a very heavy 20lb pull as both hammers are acting as double action.

There are also "half cock double actions" like the Ruger LCP, where the hammer is allowed to fall to a half cock position upon closing the slide, or firing, resulting is a lighter shorter pull to pull it back from 1/2 cock and then release it compared to if the hammer would need to be withdrawn from a rested position, and withdrawn completely.

More or less, if it makes a gun safer, faster, or more accurate, someone has tried to make it, as there are countless other actions out there made by just about every manufacturer on the planet.

single action 1911 (trigger is the horizontal bar near the bottom, sear is the half moon shaped wedge in front of the hammer, disconnector id the vertical rod that fis nto the pit in the slide



double action striker animation (trigger completely released after firing)


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Last edited by alucard0822; December 2nd, 2008 at 09:20 PM.
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Old December 2nd, 2008, 08:05 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alucard0822 View Post
These are performance aspects of a trigger setup, SA or DA are different types of triggers
Is one better than the other?


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Old December 2nd, 2008, 08:23 PM   #4
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The Double-Action (DA) trigger both cocks the mechanism/hammer, and then lets it fall, so it performs two actions.

The Single-Action (SA) trigger only performs the single task of letting the previously cocked hammer fall.

The advantage of DA is seen in self defense situations in that there is no requirement for a mechanical safety to make the gun safe to carry, because the trigger pull is relatively long and heavy and is quite unlikely to be accidentally actuated. This lack of a safety means that the handgun can be deployed with no other action that pointing and pulling the trigger, making it extremely simple, and therefore quick, to get into action. Most DA semi-auto handguns cock the hammer after the first shot, and are then SA until de-cocked.

The advantage of the SA semi-auto is that the trigger pull can be very crisp and clean and they lend themselves more to precision shooting. The SA trigger is also always consistent, not long and heavy for the first shot and short and crisp on subsequent shots, as is usually the case with DA/SA guns. The light, short pull requires the use of a mechanical safety to prevent accidentally actuating the trigger, which requires a higher level of training to effectively deploy in a self-defense situation, since it then requires one more operation before it will fire.

There are fans of both styles, and it is very much a personal preference thing.


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Old December 2nd, 2008, 08:33 PM   #5
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Thank you that was very easy to understand!

Any thoughts on Short Reset Trigger or SRT how do I use it?
The gun that I want has SRT (Sig P226 Platinum Elite)


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Old December 2nd, 2008, 08:34 PM   #6
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SRT refers to the trigger not having to travel to the fully forward position in order to be able to fire again. i.e. it is really only of use for rapid fire. The first shot requires a full pull from the forward position, but the second shot can be performed with less trigger travel since it is "reset" with less than full forward trigger travel.

hth
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Old December 2nd, 2008, 08:36 PM   #7
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Originally Posted by eddiek2000 View Post
SRT refers to the trigger not having to travel to the fully forward position in order to be able to fire again. i.e. it is really only of use for rapid fire. The first shot requires a full pull from the forward position, but the second shot can be performed with less trigger travel since it is "reset" with less than full forward trigger travel.

hth
Wow that is a nice thing to have... thanks for the info!


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Old December 2nd, 2008, 08:43 PM   #8
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I don't know much about Sigs, but understand that the SRT allows the trigger to reset sooner as one releases the trigger from the fully rearward/fired position.

Sounds good in theory, since many DA handguns have quite a long trigger stroke, and none will fire a second or subsequent shot until the trigger is returned forward to the point of resetting the mechanism (getting past the disconnector limit). In a high-stress situation, it is conceivable that one may not think to fully release the trigger between shots and thus unselfconsciously limit their ability to fire follow up shots. The SRT will reduce the chance of this happening, but so will training, something that should be done as well.

As with any handgun purchase, I'd strongly suggest handling the specific handgun, and others, prior to committing to the purchase. If it does not fit well in the hand or point naturally, the SRT is of dubious value.

ETA: I really must learn to type faster . . .


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Old December 2nd, 2008, 09:11 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MauiWowie View Post
Is one better than the other?
Oops, posted that by accident before I could type up a proper explanation, take another look at post #2


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Old December 2nd, 2008, 09:19 PM   #10
MauiWowie
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Quote:
Originally Posted by E.Shell View Post
I don't know much about Sigs, but understand that the SRT allows the trigger to reset sooner as one releases the trigger from the fully rearward/fired position.

Sounds good in theory, since many DA handguns have quite a long trigger stroke, and none will fire a second or subsequent shot until the trigger is returned forward to the point of resetting the mechanism (getting past the disconnector limit). In a high-stress situation, it is conceivable that one may not think to fully release the trigger between shots and thus unselfconsciously limit their ability to fire follow up shots. The SRT will reduce the chance of this happening, but so will training, something that should be done as well.

As with any handgun purchase, I'd strongly suggest handling the specific handgun, and others, prior to committing to the purchase. If it does not fit well in the hand or point naturally, the SRT is of dubious value.

ETA: I really must learn to type faster . . .


Yes but who rents the Platinum elite?


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Old December 2nd, 2008, 09:36 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alucard0822 View Post
These are performance aspects of a trigger setup, SA or DA are different types of triggers.

When a trigger is pulled, the initial movement is called takeup, and basically tensions the firing mechanism, and begins to pull the sear from the hammer or striker in preparatio for release. Next is the break, the small ammount of movement that actually releases the hammer or striker to hit the primer, and fire the shell. After the trigger breaks and the sear is pulled completely out of the path of the hammer/striker any additional rearward movement is called overtravel untill the trigger hits a screw, frame, or bottoms out and is stopped. Immediately after the pistol fires and the slide moves rearward, the disconnector either disconnects the physical link between the trigger and sear allowing the sear to fall back into place to hold back the tension in the main hammer or striker spring preventing the hammer from falling, or catches the hammer before it can fall again. If the hammer were allowed to fall again, you basically have a machine gun that would continue to fire round after round untill the trigger was released. Reset occurs next, the pistol cycles so fast that it is almost impossible to release the trigger before the disconector prevents a second shot, but the trigger must be reset in order to move the disconnector out of the way, and allow the trigger to re-establish the connection with the sear or release the hammer from the disconnector, and allow it to fall safely onto the sear. For this, the trigger must be allowed to move forward or release somewhat, this is the reset, basically the minimum ammount of forward movement needed to set the trigger for another shot.

Trigger pull weight can also be fairly steady, or increase incrementally up to the point before the trigger breaks, or even have a "2 stage pull" where it has a light steady pull weight for takeup, then requires a greater force to move it the miniscule ammount needed to release the sear. This is where some pistols have a better pull for a specific purpose. A very short takeup, with a very abrupt and clean break with little to no overtravel is what most people can fire most consistently, and is found on match target pistols, namely 1911s, the trigger design lends itself well to this very short ammount of pull, because, as a single action the trigger merely releases the hammer. The downside to this is the possibility of accidentally firing in a stressful situation, or the fairly frequent maintenence required to keep the trigger reliable and properly tuned. A longer takeup especially with a "2 stage" pull that may have a takup of 4lbs, and a heavier 6lb break reduces the likelyhood that the trigger would be pulled by accident, and if the reset is fairly short, you would only have to repeat the short 6lb break pull to fire again for quick follow up shots, this is the action a Glock would use. A small spring assists the sear in pulling the striker back from rest aggainst the tension of the main striker spring keeping the weight a fairly light 3lbs but a long .5" of travel, then when the sear has reached the end of it's rearward travel, the assisting spring has no more effect as the sear hits a ramp that directs it downwards pulling it away from the striker, this requires more force, and while very short, perhaps only .05", the weight needed to break the trigger is doubled, the trigger then breaks, allows the striker to drop, the pistol to fire, then the disconnector allows the sear to jump back up to catch the tab on the striker and hold it rearward as the slide chambers another round, and because the firing action has already pulled the striker fully rearward, only a short .1" reset is needed to re engage the sear on the ramp, at which point it can be pulled rearward again and fired.

As far as the whole "single action" vs "double action", they work well to describe most revolvers and hammer fired pistols, but come up short with some of the newer designs, especially striker fired pistols, or "partial cocked double actions".

Technically a single action trigger performs the single action of releasing a hammer, this is true in a standard 1911 pistol, or a Colt single action revolver. In the case of the 1911, the hammer is cocked by the slide moving rearwards for each shot. The single action revolvers hammer must be pulled back manually for each shot.

A double action is where the trigger both cocks the hammer, and releases it, this is used in doule action revolvers like the S&W 686, or double action pistols like aeretta 92 where the trigger weight has to overcome the force of the hammer spring resulting in a longer heavier pull, the difference being the revolver has the same pull every time where the Beretta 's slide cocks the hammer ater the first shot, and is a liht short single action pull for every other shot. Some pistols will actually allow the hammer to fall back into a rest position after the slide moves into battery where it requires a single action pull for every shot, this is more consistent, and does not require switching from a long heavy first pull to a short light 2nd pull as most SA/DA pistols have.

A striker fired pistol may be technically simgle action, double action, or a combintion of the two, as the Glock has a spring to assist the cocking of the striker, making for a light but long pull, and if the trigger is released completely after every shot, this would be the same pull on every shot, but in the interest of fast follow up shots, the pistol can be kept partially cocked if the trigger is held, and only released the small distance needed to reset for follow up shots with a pull that is similar to that of a single action. Many newer service pistols use a design similar to this, the S&W M&P has a small wedge that is pulled down to allow the striker to fall, however the shape of the wedge actually pushes the striker back a short distance before it drops out of the way, making it 3/4 single action, 1/4 double action, as the striker is cocked about 3/4 of the way every time, this design makes the initial takeup much shorter than the Glock, and has a feel similar to a single action even if the trigger is released completely after every shot.

There are also designs like the HK LEM trigger, that cocks a small hammer aggainst a heavy spring using the action of the slide, while the exposed 2nd hammer has a light spring overcome by the trigger, then when the trigger breaks, both springs push the exposed hammer forward forward and fire the pistol, so technically it has both a single action and a double action mechanism, and when the trigger is held rearward, the main hammer stays back, allowing a short reset, and both hammers act as single action, if the trigger is released the main hammer is decocked, and the secondary hammer remains cocked, however if a round does not fire, the trigger has to compress both springs, and cock both hammers resulting in a very heavy 20lb pull as both hammers are acting as double action.

There are also "half cock double actions" like the Ruger LCP, where the hammer is allowed to fall to a half cock position upon closing the slide, or firing, resulting is a lighter shorter pull to pull it back from 1/2 cock and then release it compared to if the hammer would need to be withdrawn from a rested position, and withdrawn completely.

More or less, if it makes a gun safer, faster, or more accurate, someone has tried to make it, as there are countless other actions out there made by just about every manufacturer on the planet.

single action 1911 (trigger is the horizontal bar near the bottom, sear is the half moon shaped wedge in front of the hammer, disconnector id the vertical rod that fis nto the pit in the slide



double action striker animation (trigger completely released after firing)
preparatio?? what they said up top. with your sig you'll have a decocker. you can chamber a round when you put a loaded mag into the weapon(which will automatically cock back the hammer) then decock it to carry. if you didnt decock it, it would be a single action trigger....after decocking it, it turns into a double action trigger with a longer and heavier first pull. you can draw your weapon and squeeze off that first long heavy pull...every shot after that will be lighter...that messes some up and you'll need to practice to put the shots in the same place. typically the heavier double-action pull could give you a 7 o'clock trigger push with the subsequent shots ending up somewhere else.

again with the short reset your trigger finger doesnt really have to move alot to reset the trigger and shoot again. on top of letting you shoot quicker(if you''ve developed the skill to shoot that fast...after thousands of rounds through my p99 i still need a whole lot of practice in that area to be considered "okay") this means your grip probably wont shift around as much as if you had more movement(ideally with good trigger control only your finger should move and nothing else but the shorter pull helps make that happen)


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Old December 2nd, 2008, 10:26 PM   #12
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I think the every post Maui makes should be thrown into a "FAQs" forum and saved...just one great thread after another.
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Old December 2nd, 2008, 10:28 PM   #13
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I think the every post Maui makes should be thrown into a "FAQs" forum and saved...just one great thread after another.
Wow thanks!
I'm just a noob with alot of freaking questions!!!


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