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Old October 12th, 2008, 04:04 PM   #1
arbud
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Final opinions on 410 for home defense

Whta is the final word guys yea or nay. Will it end a situation quickly. Thanks,Bud
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Old October 12th, 2008, 04:16 PM   #2
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Only if you have absolutely no other option, .410 has some advantages including a narrow spread pattern, but .410 buckshot loads dont have much in the way of pellets (think about it 00 buck in 12 gauge only has 8 or 9) but IMHO its 12 gauge or bust. Power, ammo flexibility.
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Old October 12th, 2008, 04:35 PM   #3
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Nay, 20, 16 or 12 when it positively, absolutely has to save YOUR life.
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Old October 12th, 2008, 08:09 PM   #4
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Nay. Unless you have no other options, it's better than a big pointy stick, but only until you get into stabbing distance.


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Old October 12th, 2008, 08:18 PM   #5
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Nay. Unless you have no other options, it's better than a big pointy stick, but only until you get into stabbing distance.
+1. might be of some value as a club, but just about useless out of clubbing range. almost better off throwing a boot.


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Old October 12th, 2008, 09:17 PM   #6
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I vote yay!

A 410 shotgun with a slug is more powerful than most pistol rounds and some people do better with long guns. Also, not everyone can handle the recoil of a 12 gage and maybe even a 20 gage. So for some people the .410 will be ideal and for everyone else, well, if 600 plus foot pounds muzzle energy slug isn't enough to stop your neighborhood attacker, then you might want to move out of that neighborhood.
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Old October 12th, 2008, 09:45 PM   #7
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I vote yay!

A 410 shotgun with a slug is more powerful than most pistol rounds and some people do better with long guns. Also, not everyone can handle the recoil of a 12 gage and maybe even a 20 gage. So for some people the .410 will be ideal and for everyone else, well, if 600 plus foot pounds muzzle energy slug isn't enough to stop your neighborhood attacker, then you might want to move out of that neighborhood.
I know nothing about the effectiveness of a .410 round against a human. I did see a video once, I think it was the Valhalla video, where they demonstrated the most common HD rounds and their effects on common household barriers. Dry wall etc. The guy in the video, and if this is Valhalla than I think I may actually take his word, eventually got to the .410. His words were something along the lines of a .410 with good rounds being plenty for any would-be attacker in a CQB situation (such as a hallway in your house) but the .410 would only go through 2-3 pieces of dry wall with lethal force. I believe they even used a ballistic gelatin torso to prove the effects of the .410 on a human, but I am not sure. Have to watch it again. The other most common rounds, even the HD specific bullets, were at least twice as many layers with lethal force.

Just something to think about. "All humans are allergic to bullets" and "The human body was never designed to leak" come to mind. Is a .410 as effective as a 12ga? Absolutely not, and I don't think anyone is going to argue that. But with the right loads, and a good CM shot or better, I don't think I would ever assume it to be ineffective either. The old saying "No one will volunteer to be shot with a .22" comes to mind as well. There are better options, sure, but if its what you got, and what you are comfortable with, or have no other choice (multiple people living in one house, with multiple rooms in one area) I don't think I would feel unprepared either.

Just my worthless .02
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Old October 12th, 2008, 10:44 PM   #8
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I vote yay!

A 410 shotgun with a slug is more powerful than most pistol rounds and some people do better with long guns. Also, not everyone can handle the recoil of a 12 gage and maybe even a 20 gage. So for some people the .410 will be ideal and for everyone else, well, if 600 plus foot pounds muzzle energy slug isn't enough to stop your neighborhood attacker, then you might want to move out of that neighborhood.
Even a modest centerfire long-gun trumps all but the largest handguns, and would be effective against most any intruder if properly loaded, in the case of the .410, the longest 000 buck shell it will safely chamber. A 3 inch shell has 5 .35cal pellets, and the gel test below shows 16" penetration, which is sufficient for defense. The problem with slugs is that they are very light, fast, and most are all lead (1/5oz=86gr, 1500-1700fps), they tend to fragment instead of penetrate, and jacketed or copper modern slug designs are hard to come by, but would probably be plenty effective, roughly 7.62X25 ballistics. More or less, 410 would be plenty sufficient for HD "on paper", and for some who could not handle something bigger, it might just be the way to go.

410 000 buck gel-test


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Old October 12th, 2008, 11:36 PM   #9
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Even a modest centerfire long-gun trumps all but the largest handguns, and would be effective against most any intruder if properly loaded, in the case of the .410, the longest 000 buck shell it will safely chamber. A 3 inch shell has 5 .35cal pellets, and the gel test below shows 16" penetration, which is sufficient for defense. The problem with slugs is that they are very light, fast, and most are all lead (1/5oz=86gr, 1500-1700fps), they tend to fragment instead of penetrate, and jacketed or copper modern slug designs are hard to come by, but would probably be plenty effective, roughly 7.62X25 ballistics. More or less, 410 would be plenty sufficient for HD "on paper", and for some who could not handle something bigger, it might just be the way to go.

410 000 buck gel-test
If a .410 slug out of a shotgun can kill a deer with a body shot, I have no hesitations about it's effects on a man.
With the buckshot, I might worry about spread and missing the target alltogether, but if they are far enough away for that to happen, then you can probably get off a second shot in time.
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Old October 13th, 2008, 12:03 AM   #10
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If a .410 slug out of a shotgun can kill a deer with a body shot, I have no hesitations about it's effects on a man.
With the buckshot, I might worry about spread and missing the target alltogether, but if they are far enough away for that to happen, then you can probably get off a second shot in time.
If they are far enough away for the shot to spread that far you probably are not in "imminent mortal danger" either. The biggest hinderance I think is the low capacity, and slow cycle rate, not from any lack of power or penetraton.


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Old October 13th, 2008, 12:12 AM   #11
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If a .410 slug out of a shotgun can kill a deer with a body shot, I have no hesitations about it's effects on a man.
With the buckshot, I might worry about spread and missing the target alltogether, but if they are far enough away for that to happen, then you can probably get off a second shot in time.

A .22 rimfire can kill a deer but like a .410 it's illegal in the Peoples Republic of Md and for good reason. Sorry Novus, a .410 doesn't pack enough ass if you want a sure kill of the democrat intruder in the middle of the night. If I HAD to only use a .410 it would be a dbl barrel.
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Old October 13th, 2008, 12:37 AM   #12
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A .22 rimfire can kill a deer but like a .410 it's illegal in the Peoples Republic of Md and for good reason. Sorry Novus, a .410 doesn't pack enough ass if you want a sure kill of the democrat intruder in the middle of the night. If I HAD to only use a .410 it would be a dbl barrel.
For me, it's a carbine, pistols, and a 12ga that I trust for HD, but then again, like most here, I practice alot, and can handle a 12ga. For folks that aren't really "gun people", elderly, small women, or the disabled, a 410 pump is a readily available, easy to shoot/light recoil, inexpensive, and reliable defensive weapon. I agree that bigger would be better, but not everyone can handle a larger long gun, and I am not convinced a 410 would be less effective than a run of the mill revolver, that is used in a huge number of succesful defensive scenarios


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Old October 13th, 2008, 12:44 AM   #13
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A .22 rimfire can kill a deer but like a .410 it's illegal in the Peoples Republic of Md and for good reason. Sorry Novus, a .410 doesn't pack enough ass if you want a sure kill of the democrat intruder in the middle of the night. If I HAD to only use a .410 it would be a dbl barrel.
In some states it is legal to hunt deer with them, and I mentioned a body shot because I know a .22 can kill with a head shot and I had a feeling someone would bring that up.

I don't care how much it might break up, at 600 or 700 foot pounds energy, even a balled up paper wad is going to do tremendous damage to someone. The Republican intruder's ass would be grass.

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In terms of performance, there is really no comparison. The flat point and hollow point Foster slugs, with Winchester at 93 grains and Remington and Federal at 97 grains are completely outclassed by the 114-grain Brenneke. The Fosters tended to shatter into flat slivers, while the Brenneke maintained its integrity, expanding to .455 inch.

The Brenneke's performance is roughly comparable to a hot, light-bullet load in a .40 S&W pistol. The performance of the Foster slugs is somewhere around the .32 S&W long to .32 H&R Magnum level. The greatest fault with the Foster design is that the slugs come apart after a relatively shallow penetration.

After extensive testing, it's my opinion that the Brenneke is an adequate deer load at close range. The Fosters are strictly for small game. Having said this, it must be admitted that a lot of deer have been taken with the .22 long rifle cartridge and my local gun shop owner told me that one of his customers took one deer a year for eight years with .410 bore Foster slugs.
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=artBody;col1
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Old October 13th, 2008, 12:51 AM   #14
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For me, it's a carbine, pistols, and a 12ga that I trust for HD, but then again, like most here, I practice alot, and can handle a 12ga. For folks that aren't really "gun people", elderly, small women, or the disabled, a 410 pump is a readily available, easy to shoot/light recoil, inexpensive, and reliable defensive weapon. I agree that bigger would be better, but not everyone can handle a larger long gun, and I am not convinced a 410 would be less effective than a run of the mill revolver, that is used in a huge number of succesful defensive scenarios

I keep one loaded weapon in the house, the 12 ga and rifles are either way too long or powerful. The .44 mag is probably too powerful as well so my choice is the Walker, close to being on par with a .357, if I miss em I can club an elephant with the 9 inch barrel or tenderize the stringiest Obama supporter.
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Old October 13th, 2008, 12:56 AM   #15
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In some states it is legal to hunt deer with them, and I mentioned a body shot because I know a .22 can kill with a head shot and I had a feeling someone would bring that up.

I don't care how much it might break up, at 600 or 700 foot pounds energy, even a balled up paper wad is going to do tremendous damage to someone. The Republican intruder's ass would be grass.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...g=artBody;col1
Novus, Novus, Novus you're overlooking the fundamentals of house break-ins. Our fictitious Republican in question would only need to point to the ceiling and exclaim a flying saucer is loose in the house. That should allow him a minimum of 5 minutes for the democrat to ask his long gone nemesis "where"?
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Old October 13th, 2008, 12:56 AM   #16
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I keep one loaded weapon in the house, the 12 ga and rifles are either way too long or powerful. The .44 mag is probably too powerful as well so my choice is the Walker, close to being on par with a .357, if I miss em I can club an elephant with the 9 inch barrel or tenderize the stringiest democrat.
Hell, with that smokepole being fired indoors they will probably die of smoke inhalation first.
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Old October 13th, 2008, 12:59 AM   #17
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Novus, Novus, Novus you're overlooking the fundamentals of house break-ins. Our fictitious Republican in question would only need to point to the ceiling and exclaim a flying saucer is loose in the house. That should allow him a minimum of 5 minutes for the democrat to ask his long gone nemesis "where"?
Hmm, kinda reminds me of the weapons of mass destruction trick. You Repubs are tricky bastards.
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Old October 13th, 2008, 12:59 AM   #18
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Hell, with that smokepole being fired indoors they will probably die of smoke inhalation first.

That's why I have a aircraft smoke mask on the holster.
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Old October 13th, 2008, 09:08 AM   #19
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I don't really know who it is that can't handle a 12 gauge. I've seen several <100 pound women handle shoulder fired 12 gauges with no problems after the first two or three "learning" shots. Sure there's a kick, but like any other gun if you manage it, it won't manage you.


That being said, I'm sure as hell not volunteering to get nailed by a .410...
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Old October 16th, 2008, 06:15 PM   #20
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Come to the fun shoot, and see the wife's Saiga-.410 with UF stock and 10rd mags. PERFECT HD weapon for her.(she is bringing her matching AK too).


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