Competition pistol question

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

  • No ad networks!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • jimbobborg

    Oddball caliber fan
    Aug 2, 2010
    17,112
    Northern Virginia
    I'm currently looking at getting an M&P CORE with 5" barrel in .40 S&W (don't judge) and then installing a Leupold RMR on it later this year. I'm assuming that this pistol should be good for competition shooting out of the box, am I wrong? How well will this hold up for lots of competition shooting? Also, is the Leupold good enough for this or should I look at something else? This will be strictly for competition use, I have plenty of other firearms for every other duty short of dangerous game.
     

    lx1x

    Peanut Gallery
    Apr 19, 2009
    26,992
    Maryland
    Under uspsa.. it will put you in open class.. having a red dot on it.

    Have you competed before?
     

    Chasbo00

    Active Member
    Jun 30, 2012
    303
    Northern VA
    You would be at a disadvantage equipment wise in IPSC or USPSA open divisions as your competition will mainly be using pistols with; non-slide-mounted sights, muzzle compensators, apx 2 lb triggers, and hot 9mm diamater cartridges allowing for higher ammo capacities and thus fewer reloads. IDPA does not yet allow optical sights - soon maybe.

    I'll defer to the three-gun shooters regarding your proposed gun's viability in that venue.

    However, if you are not concerned about being competitive, you can shoot your proposed gun in both IPSC and USPSA open divisions. Also, many IDPA club events will let you shoot it there too, just not for score.
     

    jimbobborg

    Oddball caliber fan
    Aug 2, 2010
    17,112
    Northern Virginia
    In the various 3-gun matches I've shot at, I've used pistols in 9mm, .40 S&W, and 10mm. I want to use .40 S&W because marginal hits with 9mm will move a plate whereas the plates fall when marginally hit with a 180gr bullet. The 10mm was an experience, but I lost too much brass :D Anyway, I do have a nice stock 9mm which if I chose to shoot USPSA would be fine for production and is SSP for IDPA. I'm experimenting with shooting Open Division in 3-gun, so I don't want to sink a ton of money into the pistol.
     

    howard762

    York Match Director
    Feb 2, 2012
    168
    Stewartstown PA
    9mm is more than sufficient for knocking steel down in multi-gun competition. Higher capacity is not the only reason to use 9mm. 9mm also has less recoil for faster follow up shots, and is cheaper to buy or load for.

    There is nothing wrong with a slide mounted optic in open.

    If you have a decent 9mm already then maybe the solution is just a new slide for it with a slide mounted optic and longer barrel with compensator.

    Not that I don't like to buy new guns once in a while myself (if you're looking for an excuse).
     

    photoracer

    Competition Shooter
    Oct 22, 2010
    3,318
    West Virginia
    One thing you must be aware of is that a comped open gun shooting Major loads shoots flatter, faster, and with less muzzle rise than just about any gun shooting any caliber that is not equipped with a comp. And shooting something in the 9mm class (9mm Major, 9x23 Super Comp, or 38 Super). Listen to Howard on this. I think Robbie once told me that no one had even made Grand Master in USPSA Open Division shooting a .40S&W. In USPSA it is usually because of the lower mag capacity as it would be in 3-gun Open division also. USPSA has setup the Limited class so people with .40 guns don't have to compete against the 9mm guns. But it is not an open class.

    If you worry about bullet weight then setup a gun to shoot 147g bullets in 9mm. No loss in capacity. Or shoot Major PF loads in 124g. Otherwise shot placement is more important than bullet weight.
    The problem with 3-gun open division is you likely won't be competitive without sinking a lot into an open pistol. Or more to the point an open shotgun ($$$). However in most local matches the guys shooting Open 3-gun are not the best. So it is a class where you can cherry pick higher finishes than Tac Optics. Me I have an open USPSA STI in 9x23mm. I could shoot open 3-gun but the brass is much more expensive than regular 9mm so I don't because of the shotgun costs and reloading a lot. Shooting 9mm from WM means I don't have to reload (all the ammo I use in 3G is from WM also) and go around picking up all my brass.
    I am working on converting one of my old USPSA Limited guns in 9x23mm into a .40S&W. Just waiting on the slide to arrive. I might try it in Tac Optics 3-gun, but I really want it for other competition.
    My solution would be if you don't think your ammo is doing the job load heavier bullets, don't change to a caliber with a built in disadvantage. Nothing wrong with experimenting, you just don't want to go in too far financially only to find you hit a dead end. I used to have a Sig P229 Sport open gun in 357Sig. I eventually quit beating my self over the head and had an STI open gun built. Much more money but also much better results.
     

    Chasbo00

    Active Member
    Jun 30, 2012
    303
    Northern VA
    There is nothing wrong with a slide mounted optic in open.

    Slide mounting makes sight dot tracking more difficult and it adversely affects sight zero issues and overall sight reliability. The sight manufacturers will get the sight ruggedness issues solved as slide-mounted optical pistol sights see increasing use and greater popularity, but they are not there yet.
     

    jimbobborg

    Oddball caliber fan
    Aug 2, 2010
    17,112
    Northern Virginia
    9mm is more than sufficient for knocking steel down in multi-gun competition. Higher capacity is not the only reason to use 9mm. 9mm also has less recoil for faster follow up shots, and is cheaper to buy or load for.

    There is nothing wrong with a slide mounted optic in open.

    If you have a decent 9mm already then maybe the solution is just a new slide for it with a slide mounted optic and longer barrel with compensator.

    Not that I don't like to buy new guns once in a while myself (if you're looking for an excuse).

    I'm not butchering my CZ-75, I still use it for IDPA when I get an opportunity to attend a match. The .40 is a high pressure cartridge, I'd eventually get a comped barrel for it. As you stated, higher pressure round do better with comps, standard bulk 9mm is not really a high pressure cartridge, the .40 is. Plus I do want to pick up another pistol, the balance between pistol and long guns in my safes is off :innocent0

    One thing you must be aware of is that a comped open gun shooting Major loads shoots flatter, faster, and with less muzzle rise than just about any gun shooting any caliber that is not equipped with a comp. And shooting something in the 9mm class (9mm Major, 9x23 Super Comp, or 38 Super). Listen to Howard on this. I think Robbie once told me that no one had even made Grand Master in USPSA Open Division shooting a .40S&W. In USPSA it is usually because of the lower mag capacity as it would be in 3-gun Open division also. USPSA has setup the Limited class so people with .40 guns don't have to compete against the 9mm guns. But it is not an open class.

    If you worry about bullet weight then setup a gun to shoot 147g bullets in 9mm. No loss in capacity. Or shoot Major PF loads in 124g. Otherwise shot placement is more important than bullet weight.
    The problem with 3-gun open division is you likely won't be competitive without sinking a lot into an open pistol. Or more to the point an open shotgun ($$$). However in most local matches the guys shooting Open 3-gun are not the best. So it is a class where you can cherry pick higher finishes than Tac Optics. Me I have an open USPSA STI in 9x23mm. I could shoot open 3-gun but the brass is much more expensive than regular 9mm so I don't because of the shotgun costs and reloading a lot. Shooting 9mm from WM means I don't have to reload (all the ammo I use in 3G is from WM also) and go around picking up all my brass.
    I am working on converting one of my old USPSA Limited guns in 9x23mm into a .40S&W. Just waiting on the slide to arrive. I might try it in Tac Optics 3-gun, but I really want it for other competition.
    My solution would be if you don't think your ammo is doing the job load heavier bullets, don't change to a caliber with a built in disadvantage. Nothing wrong with experimenting, you just don't want to go in too far financially only to find you hit a dead end. I used to have a Sig P229 Sport open gun in 357Sig. I eventually quit beating my self over the head and had an STI open gun built. Much more money but also much better results.

    I've shot 3-gun with both 9mm and .40. I had to use the 9mm when I was having work done on my .40. I used 9mm NATO rounds. If I didn't get good hits with the 9mm, the plates didn't get knocked over. I've had shots with the .40 that hit the sides of the plates and knocked them off.

    Slide mounting makes sight dot tracking more difficult and it adversely affects sight zero issues and overall sight reliability. The sight manufacturers will get the sight ruggedness issues solved as slide-mounted optical pistol sights see increasing use and greater popularity, but they are not there yet.

    That's why I asked about the Leupold. The reason I am looking at slide mounted optics is it's easier to get holsters for them versus having to get a race rig for side mounted optics. I've seen too many people drop their pistols during competitions with them to want that kind of set up.
     

    Pinecone

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 4, 2013
    28,175
    For a beginner, it is more important to get out and shoot.

    Equipment is of little different to a beginning shooter.

    Shoot, get experience and THEN see what you want to get and which direction you want to go.
     

    covertpanda

    Penguin Hunter
    Sep 10, 2013
    324
    Carroll
    I've been shooting 3-gun since before I signed up for this site...
    Hey, i would be more concerned about the rifle and shotgun than the pistol (in terms of Open 3-gun). I don't think the mag capacity will be a problem (as you're around 20 v. 28-30), but a pistol reload takes less than 2 seconds. I would be a little concerned about the mount, I just don't know how well their slides will hold into an rmr. Bobby carver makes an m&p mount if you would be interested. Lastly, you would definitely be at a disadvantage in uspsa open, a 2011 or CZ/TZ clone would simply out perform the m&p. Either way, if you're having fun who cares.
     

    jimbobborg

    Oddball caliber fan
    Aug 2, 2010
    17,112
    Northern Virginia
    Hey, i would be more concerned about the rifle and shotgun than the pistol (in terms of Open 3-gun). I don't think the mag capacity will be a problem (as you're around 20 v. 28-30), but a pistol reload takes less than 2 seconds. I would be a little concerned about the mount, I just don't know how well their slides will hold into an rmr. Bobby carver makes an m&p mount if you would be interested. Lastly, you would definitely be at a disadvantage in uspsa open, a 2011 or CZ/TZ clone would simply out perform the m&p. Either way, if you're having fun who cares.

    I've got the rifle sorted, I'm upgrading the pistol option to Open now and will get an Open shotgun later this year. I'm asking about this specific set up as it's an option for me for a lot less than a truly Open pistol.
     

    Chasbo00

    Active Member
    Jun 30, 2012
    303
    Northern VA
    The .40 is a high pressure cartridge, I'd eventually get a comped barrel for it. As you stated, higher pressure round do better with comps, standard bulk 9mm is not really a high pressure cartridge, the .40 is. Plus I do want to pick up another pistol, the balance between pistol and long guns in my safes is off :innocent0

    Actually, the .40 S&W and 9mm Luger have the same SAAMI pressure specs. The SAAMI +P 9mm pressure spec is higher than the .40 S&W. 38,500 v 35,000 as I recall.


    I've shot 3-gun with both 9mm and .40. I had to use the 9mm when I was having work done on my .40. I used 9mm NATO rounds. If I didn't get good hits with the 9mm, the plates didn't get knocked over. I've had shots with the .40 that hit the sides of the plates and knocked them off.

    Momentum is the key for plate knockdown ability - muzzle velocity times bullet weight. Cartridge chamber pressure is only meaningful here as it relates to the velocity of a specific bullet weight. Either a .40 or 9mm having the same power factor (momentum) should knock down a steel target equally well. This is not necessarily the case with bowling pins or other targets not made of steel or having other than flat surfaces - here bullet construction and bullet diameter can be factors.


    That's why I asked about the Leupold. The reason I am looking at slide mounted optics is it's easier to get holsters for them versus having to get a race rig for side mounted optics. I've seen too many people drop their pistols during competitions with them to want that kind of set up.



    I think most action pistol competition games actually work against slide-mounted pistol optics being adopted. So long as the open divisions allow frame mounted optics, they will continue to be preferred over slide-mounted optics if for no other reason than easier dot tracking. Divisions other than open and even entire game venues such as IDPA just don't allow pistol optics. This is no incentive for the manufacturers to put a lot of R&D into slide-mounted optical pistol sights.

    At present, I believe the general defensive pistol market has provided the bulk of early adopters for slide-mounted optical pistol sights. Police agencies have not yet jumped on board with any zeal that I'm aware of nor has the military including even its special ops outfits. Not being a three gun shooter or one who follows what's going on there, I don't know if slide mounted optical pistol sights are becoming popular in that arena.

    To make a rugged, small and reliable slide-mounted optical pistol sight is not an easy engineering challenge and it's expensive. Cost remains an issue as mounting a good quality slide-mounted optic on a service pistol costs as much or more than the pistol itself. S&W has tried to help this cost issue with it's CORE models, but the cost of sights themselves is still as much as the gun. This situation does not help foster wide adoption when we are talking service pistols.

    So, are the Leupold DeltaPoints or Trijicon RMRs rugged enough and reliable? From all I can surmise they are the current best of breed for pistol slide-mounted reflex sights, but I'm pretty sure they are not ready for top level prime time in IPSC or USPSA open divisions. Whether they are ready for your use is going to have to be your call. Just remember, you will be an early adopter and you get all that goes with that - the good and the bad.

    Personally, I can't see the front sight well at all anymore. Bring on the slide-mounted optics - I'm already a dot fan. But, I'm not yet inclined to join the ranks of early adopters - still too costly for me.
     
    Last edited:

    Braddbdl

    Fed up Libertarian
    Mar 30, 2010
    854
    Oviedo, FL
    I'm sure you have already, but check out Speed Shooter Specialties (SSS) http://speedshooterspecialties.com/

    I'm also building an M&P Open gun to play around with. I bought the standard length slide CORE, and have outfitted it with a Trijicon RMR, and APEX FSS. I'm going to buy a threaded barrel, and a comp from SSS. I have the RMR on an FNX 45 Tac and really like it. It can take a beating, haven't seen any zero issues, or anything else wrong with it after about 1k rounds. Not much of a test so far, but others have really abused them and it seems to be pretty rock solid.

    I bought the one that is dual illuminated by fiber optic and tritium, 7MOA amber dot. You will want a large dot for a pistol, and 7 seemed to look the best out of all the sizes I looked at.
     

    BenL

    John Galt Speaking.
    I shoot USPSA Limited Major and 3 gun with the same gun (SVI) in .40 and prefer it on steel for the better knockdown than 9mm. As long as you're ok competing in open class and no IDPA, your plan is good. Have you looked into holsters for it, yet? Bladetech is probably your best bet.
     

    Users who are viewing this thread

    Latest posts

    Forum statistics

    Threads
    274,922
    Messages
    7,259,100
    Members
    33,349
    Latest member
    christian04

    Latest threads

    Top Bottom