Handgun Permit Review Board Reform

Gryphon · Jun 4, 2015

DC-W said:
I don't think so.
The two tenured members changed their tune after the license was brought up. For some reason, Knuab did not know he had the license, but the board did.

Knaub claimed not to have it, and it wasn't relevant because the applicant didn't claim a business purpose in the application, but the Board had a copy in their file (?), and the appellant had another copy with him. That was the interesting thing. The g&s morphed right before our eyes during the hearing.

Knaub was not concerned with the dollar amounts, but the applicant was to provide documentation of the accounts/taxes. Whatever the applicant can provide to establish finanacial busniess dealings regardless of $ amount.

dgapilot · Jun 4, 2015

All this talk about requiring a Business License is nothing but BS on the part of MSP. Quoting from the MD Department of business and Economic Development web site

"A State of Maryland business license is required for most businesses, including retailers and wholesalers. A trader's license is required for buying and re-selling. Business activities that require licenses include, but are not limited to: amusements; auctions; chain stores; construction; dry cleaners; farm machinery; garages; hawkers and peddlers; junk dealers; plumbing and gas fitters; restaurants; retail stores; storage warehouses; traders; and vending machines. "

If not ALL businesses require a license, how can the MSP require a business license to establish G&S? I've run a part time business repairing aircraft for as long as I've lived in MD with no business license. I do it as a sole proprietor with no trade name. While I haven't tried to apply, under the guidelines they've established, even though I run a business that has reasonable cash flow, I still would not meet their standards.

Schipperke · Jun 4, 2015

dgapilot said:
All this talk about requiring a Business License is nothing but BS on the part of MSP. Quoting from the MD Department of business and Economic Development web site

"A State of Maryland business license is required for most businesses, including retailers and wholesalers. A trader's license is required for buying and re-selling. Business activities that require licenses include, but are not limited to: amusements; auctions; chain stores; construction; dry cleaners; farm machinery; garages; hawkers and peddlers; junk dealers; plumbing and gas fitters; restaurants; retail stores; storage warehouses; traders; and vending machines. "

If not ALL businesses require a license, how can the MSP require a business license to establish G&S? I've run a part time business repairing aircraft for as long as I've lived in MD with no business license. I do it as a sole proprietor with no trade name. While I haven't tried to apply, under the guidelines they've established, even though I run a business that has reasonable cash flow, I still would not meet their standards.

Do you have a schedule C ? Note one comment "taxes" were mentioned. You must have some invoices and deposits too? You have an A&P License, that should work.

dgapilot · Jun 4, 2015

I do file Schedule "C" each year, so I can show income and expenses. Don't know if that would work, haven't tried it.

Perhaps since we are chipping away at G&S, once the "you don't need deposits" are established as precedent and they are sticking to it, then perhaps I or someone with a similar business entity could be the test case to get the "you need a business license" kicked out.

One step at a time!

Mr H · Jun 4, 2015

I will be considering 'reactivating' my application, but need to do some checking first.

Want to make sure I cover all my bases.

Gryphon · Jun 4, 2015

Business license has been used above in a generic sense. I am pretty sure the fishing rod guy at the 6/2 HGPRB meeting just had a trader's license (others can correct me if I am mistaken please), and if I recall one of the Board members said yep, that's all she had for her business. In other words, it doesn't necessarily need to be a Inc. or LLC, but I agree the carve out for "business" applications is BS - as Capt. Jack has so eloquently stated.

Tomcat · Jun 4, 2015

A State of Maryland business license is required for most businesses, including retailers and wholesalers. A trader's license is required for buying and re-selling. Business activities that require licenses include, but are not limited to: amusements; auctions; chain stores; construction; dry cleaners; farm machinery; garages; hawkers and peddlers; junk dealers; plumbing and gas fitters; restaurants; retail stores; storage warehouses; traders; and vending machines.

So, I go to yard sales and flea markets to purchase items which I then re-sell. Always on the look out for a good deal. :innocent0

redeemed.man · Jun 4, 2015

hitwtom said:
So, I go to yard sales and flea markets to purchase items which I then re-sell. Always on the look out for a good deal.

Register a trade name and get the sales tax license. All set.

Gryphon · Jun 4, 2015

hitwtom said:
So, I go to yard sales and flea markets to purchase items which I then re-sell. Always on the look out for a good deal.

I don't see how that is any different from the fishing rod guy. Per Knaub, if you have a business or traders license for that income producing "business," and have documented bank accounts or taxes for that business (even if in your own name as a sole-proprieter) in no minimum amount, and are otherwise eligible, you get a restricted permit. Then if you can establish you are going to or from a flea market or yard sale, or even carry items to sell impromptu out of the trunk, you would be good to go and within your restrictions.

And NO, the other guy that has a few hundred dollars in his pocket to buy what you are dragging around in your trunk is not entitled to a permit for self-defense. And YES, the MSP's standard is that absurd and arbitrary.

Applehd · Jun 4, 2015

"with restrictions" was also pointed out to fishing rod guy when told he would get his permit.

LCPIWB · Jun 4, 2015

There is already plenty of discussion going on but thought I would throw some more fuel on the fire.

The new Board Members are thought to be 2A, but there is still some work to be done as some BGOS going on.

Discussing with a new board member after the meeting the chat was on "privacy" and the reasons for behind closed doors when making a decision. "It is to protect the privacy of the individual who may or may not receive the permit".
I then said. Well I object to providing three references for the MSP to contact for privacy reasons. That is broadcasting to those co-workers, or friends or family my intentions. I also stated that I do not think it is in the Md statutes, maybe COMAR (which is not Law), but not the statutes. (I will look it up later, but anyone with the statute in hand chime in).
The defense of the requiring 3 references the new board member attempted to make was "Well we need to know if you are a violent person or not." My reply to that was, sorry but my criminal record or lack there of should be the proof of no violent tendencies, not people's opinions or biases. The new board member went on to say we have it so good as DE advertizes it in the newspaper you are applying. I did not reply to that statement at the time, but to me that is some wrong thinking that needs to be corrected.
Maybe the others heard things differently and care to correct or give their version of what they think they heard.

EDIT:

Did my own home work.
Md. PUBLIC SAFETY Code Ann. § 5-305
and
Md. PUBLIC SAFETY Code Ann. § 5-306
Do not say anything about contacting references or the need to provide any.
6(i) does say about not exhibiting a propensity for violence. But again I argue if I had a propensity for violence there should be some police record to back that up.

CypherPunk · Jun 4, 2015

LCPIWB said:
There is already plenty of discussion going on but thought I would throw some more fuel on the fire.

The new Board Members are thought to be 2A, but there is still some work to be done as some BGOS going on.

Discussing with a new board member after the meeting the chat was on "privacy" and the reasons for behind closed doors when making a decision. "It is to protect the privacy of the individual who may or may not receive the permit".
I then said. Well I object to providing three references for the MSP to contact for privacy reasons. That is broadcasting to those co-workers, or friends or family my intentions. I also stated that I do not think it is in the Md statutes, maybe COMAR (which is not Law), but not the statutes. (I will look it up later, but anyone with the statute in hand chime in).
The defense of the requiring 3 references the new board member attempted to make was "Well we need to know if you are a violent person or not." My reply to that was, sorry but my criminal record or lack there of should be the proof of no violent tendencies, not people's opinions or biases. The new board member went on to say we have it so good as DE advertizes it in the newspaper you are applying. I did not reply to that statement at the time, but to me that is some wrong thinking that needs to be corrected.
Maybe the others heard things differently and care to correct or give their version of what they think they heard.

EDIT:

Did my own home work.
Md. PUBLIC SAFETY Code Ann. § 5-305
and
Md. PUBLIC SAFETY Code Ann. § 5-306
Do not say anything about contacting references or the need to provide any.
6(i) does say about not exhibiting a propensity for violence. But again I argue if I had a propensity for violence there should be some police record to back that up.

When smart people examine liberal logic, it's not hard to expose their duplicitousness.

Schipperke · Jun 4, 2015

LCPIWB said:
There is already plenty of discussion going on but thought I would throw some more fuel on the fire.

The new Board Members are thought to be 2A, but there is still some work to be done as some BGOS going on.

Discussing with a new board member after the meeting the chat was on "privacy" and the reasons for behind closed doors when making a decision. "It is to protect the privacy of the individual who may or may not receive the permit".
I then said. Well I object to providing three references for the MSP to contact for privacy reasons. That is broadcasting to those co-workers, or friends or family my intentions. I also stated that I do not think it is in the Md statutes, maybe COMAR (which is not Law), but not the statutes. (I will look it up later, but anyone with the statute in hand chime in).
The defense of the requiring 3 references the new board member attempted to make was "Well we need to know if you are a violent person or not." My reply to that was, sorry but my criminal record or lack there of should be the proof of no violent tendencies, not people's opinions or biases. The new board member went on to say we have it so good as DE advertizes it in the newspaper you are applying. I did not reply to that statement at the time, but to me that is some wrong thinking that needs to be corrected.
Maybe the others heard things differently and care to correct or give their version of what they think they heard.

EDIT:

Did my own home work.
Md. PUBLIC SAFETY Code Ann. § 5-305
and
Md. PUBLIC SAFETY Code Ann. § 5-306
Do not say anything about contacting references or the need to provide any.
6(i) does say about not exhibiting a propensity for violence. But again I argue if I had a propensity for violence there should be some police record to back that up.

May not be intuitive, but depending on the process when giving references it is like putting them on trial. This is part of the application that really bothers me. I've been on the reference end of some agency inquiry before. It was kind of like I was being examined then crossed on my answers of the guy that put me down as a reference. No idea what MSP asks, but my social sphere isn't exactly sympathetic to conceal carry. Even the guys I go to the range with.

DC does not have a reference requirement, give them some credit there.

ironpony · Jun 4, 2015

Just talked to my accountant and she said if I get a trade name MD will then want personal property info and I am best off doing my taxes as I am. I do custom service work and the MD Dept. of assessment and taxation told me not to get a license, that was today as well.
Would love to figure out the HPRB formulas. Thanks for all the info guys.

K-Romulus · Jun 4, 2015

Schipperke said:
May not be intuitive, but depending on the process when giving references it is like putting them on trial. This is part of the application that really bothers me. I've been on the reference end of some agency inquiry before. It was kind of like I was being examined then crossed on my answers of the guy that put me down as a reference. No idea what MSP asks, but my social sphere isn't exactly sympathetic to conceal carry. Even the guys I go to the range with.

DC does not have a reference requirement, give them some credit there.

The references thing is BS for all the reasons stated. As a white collar type in the DC area, how many folks do I know who are sympathetic to CCW? The 2 that MIGHT be both live in VA, not MD. Assuming MD would accept them, that still leaves me one short.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

montoya32 · Jun 4, 2015

Schipperke said:
May not be intuitive, but depending on the process when giving references it is like putting them on trial. This is part of the application that really bothers me. I've been on the reference end of some agency inquiry before. It was kind of like I was being examined then crossed on my answers of the guy that put me down as a reference. No idea what MSP asks, but my social sphere isn't exactly sympathetic to conceal carry. Even the guys I go to the range with.

DC does not have a reference requirement, give them some credit there.

I have definitive proof that MSP indicates to the references as to what the inquiry is about. :innocent0

Mr H · Jun 4, 2015

ironpony said:
Just talked to my accountant and she said if I get a trade name MD will then want personal property info and I am best off doing my taxes as I am. I do custom service work and the MD Dept. of assessment and taxation told me not to get a license, that was today as well.
Would love to figure out the HPRB formulas. Thanks for all the info guys.

I have been considering getting back into custom golf club building, fitting and repair... I suppose I would have to see what the threshold would be between 'hobbyist' and 'business'...

moojersey · Jun 4, 2015

montoya32 said:
I have definitive proof that MSP indicates to the references as to what the inquiry is about.

Well that seems to be a big breach of privacy if you ask me.

montoya32 · Jun 4, 2015

moojersey said:
Well that seems to be a big breach of privacy if you ask me.

Exactly.

Biggfoot44 · Jun 4, 2015

The references don't have to live in Md , just know you the required number of years. One of mine from the 365/ 700 Club days lived in Va.

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