CCW training requirement just might be here soon.

The #1 community for Gun Owners of the Northeast

Member Benefits:

  • No ad networks!
  • Discuss all aspects of firearm ownership
  • Discuss anti-gun legislation
  • Buy, sell, and trade in the classified section
  • Chat with Local gun shops, ranges, trainers & other businesses
  • Discover free outdoor shooting areas
  • View up to date on firearm-related events
  • Share photos & video with other members
  • ...and so much more!
  • Status
    Not open for further replies.

    Boxcab

    MSI EM
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 22, 2007
    7,867
    AA County
    The 2A is an enumerated, fundamental, Right. While MD may pass such a law, I do not see it standing for very long. Try to put a training requirement on the Right to vote, or to speak/write/publish, or to receive a trial by your peers.

    There are a number of people who have posted here that clearly do not understand what a Fundamental Right is. The implications of the SCOTUS rulings of Heller and McDonald extend much further than many realize.
     

    Garet Jax

    Not ignored by gamer_jim
    MDS Supporter
    May 5, 2011
    6,572
    Bel Air
    Looks like it's now a requirement.

    When I read the requirements for Utah CCW as you posted, I still don't believe that live fire is among them.

    Weapon Familiarity Certification. Applicants must complete a firearms familiarity course certified by BCI. The course must be completed before you apply for a permit. Please have your instructor complete the certification information on the application. View a list of (in-state) (out-of-state) certified instructors.

    The course I took flew in the certified instructor from Utah and he went over the "firearm familiarity" portion in class with a dummy gun. As I read the above, that would still suffice.
     

    MJD438

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Feb 28, 2012
    5,849
    Somewhere in MD
    My biggest fear is that this is a very, very, very real argument for the state to receive their permanent stay!

    If they make, effectively, the case that they are not equipped to allow citizens to carry despite their neighboring states allowing the free exercise of the right (in states that have NO TRAINING REQUIREMENT FOR OPEN CARRY, READ DE & VA, MOST OF PA, I'll defer on WVA and NC since I do not know those states for their laws), why then should we subject ourselves to a potential derailment of permit issuance as quickly as possible?

    This is BAD politicking when we are close to a victory. This is the equivalent of allowing certain army on a counter blitzkrieg to run out of supplies just so we can keep an Allied army happy.

    I don't see how the AG could justify this argument at either the district or CA4 with over 40,000 permits already out there that had absolutely zero training requirement, with limited exceptions for the security/armored car category (per others posting in various threads here).
     

    dlmcbm

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 5, 2011
    1,207
    Sabillasville, Md.
    another message from him per facebook


    Michael Smigiel


    I had planned on offering this language, I am being told that the Senate will not accept the NRA being named so I am offering the language below as an alternative, "or any course approved by the Maryland Police Training Commission" (which I am told approves the NRA courses)

    "Persons shall provide proof of an honorable discharge from a branch of the United States Military, retirement or current employment with a local or state police department, or completion of a hunter safety course,or any firearms course approved by the Maryland Police Training Commission or persons in possession of out of State permits to carry which required completion of a safety course requirement.

    Can anyone help me come up with some language used in other states that would encompass the NRA courses without mentioning the NRA?
     

    vector03

    Frustrated Incorporated
    Jan 7, 2009
    2,519
    Columbia
    The 2A is an enumerated, fundamental, Right. While MD may pass such a law, I do not see it standing for very long. Try to put a training requirement on the Right to vote, or to speak/write/publish, or to receive a trial by your peers.

    There are a number of people who have posted here that clearly do not understand what a Fundamental Right is. The implications of the SCOTUS rulings of Heller and McDonald extend much further than many realize.


    Great Post!
    :clap:
     

    fightinbluhen51

    "Quack Pot Call Honker"
    Oct 31, 2008
    8,974
    I don't see how the AG could justify this argument at either the district or CA4 with over 40,000 permits already out there that had absolutely zero training requirement, with limited exceptions for the security/armored car category (per others posting in various threads here).
    Creative argument...good lawyering.

    If you have been following the Delegate's facebook on this...it seems like there are not enough votes to stop this in the house and they are offering this as an "amendment" to another, non-gun related bill.

    IF THIS PASSES, would we be able to challenge it to the ballot?

    Start lighting up the phones to your delegates and tell them to STOP and squash the shenanigans the state is playing with carry permits before 1) we sue them again and 2) before they violate the judge's order and 3) they stop toying with our civil rights.
     

    fightinbluhen51

    "Quack Pot Call Honker"
    Oct 31, 2008
    8,974
    another message from him per facebook


    Michael Smigiel


    I had planned on offering this language, I am being told that the Senate will not accept the NRA being named so I am offering the language below as an alternative, "or any course approved by the Maryland Police Training Commission" (which I am told approves the NRA courses)

    "Persons shall provide proof of an honorable discharge from a branch of the United States Military, retirement or current employment with a local or state police department, or completion of a hunter safety course,or any firearms course approved by the Maryland Police Training Commission or persons in possession of out of State permits to carry which required completion of a safety course requirement.

    Can anyone help me come up with some language used in other states that would encompass the NRA courses without mentioning the NRA?
    And of course, the Maryland Police Training commission could simply "decertify" the NRA courses. Which means another lawsuit on a different issue, and another 20 months.
     

    BenL

    John Galt Speaking.
    Wouldn't they have a tough time explaining to the courts that, right up until this moment, they've never had a training requirement, but since it's been recognized as a fundamental right, now all of the sudden they have a training requirement? To me, this smacks of contempt of court.
     

    fightinbluhen51

    "Quack Pot Call Honker"
    Oct 31, 2008
    8,974
    Wouldn't they have a tough time explaining to the courts that, right up until this moment, they've never had a training requirement, but since it's been recognized as a fundamental right, now all of the sudden they have a training requirement? To me, this smacks of contempt of court.
    Thing is, different law, different statue. Unless they offer this to amend the MD ann. code for the same section that already regulates this.

    IANAL
     

    Broadside

    Active Member
    Mar 20, 2012
    305
    Virginia
    This is directly from the Virginia State Police Web site. Unfortunately, I don't think it helps much:

    The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence:

    1. Completing any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries or a similar agency of another state;
    2. Completing any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;
    3. Completing any firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law-enforcement agency, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association or the Department of Criminal Justice Services;
    4. Completing any law-enforcement firearms safety or training course or class offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of law enforcement or security enforcement;
    5. Presenting evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services;
    6. Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in this Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause;
    7. Completing any firearms training or safety course or class, including an electronic, video, or on-line course, conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association-certified firearms instructor;
    8. Completing any governmental police agency firearms training course and qualifying to carry a firearm in the course of normal police duties; or
    9. Completing any other firearms training which the court deems adequate.

    A photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes; an affidavit from the instructor, school, club, organization, or group that conducted or taught such course or class attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant; or a copy of any document which shows completion of the course or class or evidences participation in firearms competition shall constitute evidence of qualification under this subsection.


    If the Maryland Senate won't accept languate naming the NRA, the largest firearms training organization in the world second only to the U.S. Military, then I think another lawsuit is going to be necessary.

    The only other suggestion I could offer is to name the NRA class without naming the NRA. For example you could say something like "a basic pistol safety class" or "a basic personal protection outside the home class".
     

    pcfixer

    Ultimate Member
    May 24, 2009
    5,948
    Marylandstan
    Wouldn't they have a tough time explaining to the courts that, right up until this moment, they've never had a training requirement, but since it's been recognized as a fundamental right, now all of the sudden they have a training requirement? To me, this smacks of contempt of court.

    Amen to this.. Basic training just as requirement to purchase a firearm
    or regulated pistol or AR.. Maryland safety video and or military ID.
     

    Broadside

    Active Member
    Mar 20, 2012
    305
    Virginia
    I don't see how the AG could justify this argument at either the district or CA4 with over 40,000 permits already out there that had absolutely zero training requirement, with limited exceptions for the security/armored car category (per others posting in various threads here).

    I would think that this would depend on how many of the 40,000 permits were currently issued for G&S reasons versus other categories.
     

    2ndCharter

    Based dude w/ lovin' hands
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 19, 2011
    4,795
    Eastern Shore
    Amen to this.. Basic training just as requirement to purchase a firearm
    or regulated pistol or AR.. Maryland safety video and or military ID.
    That alienates a large group of people who've had other training previously but you are on the right track. As much as I'd like to see no training requirement stuck to us, the Virginia one above is fairly benign. I've met at least 7 of the nine and maybe #9 depending on their list.

    I've never watched the MD safety video nor do I currently hold a military ID yet I meet state requirements. ;)
     

    Dead Eye

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Jul 21, 2010
    3,691
    At Wal-Mart, buying more ammo.
    This is directly from the Virginia State Police Web site. Unfortunately, I don't think it helps much:

    The court shall require proof that the applicant has demonstrated competence with a handgun and the applicant may demonstrate such competence by one of the following, but no applicant shall be required to submit to any additional demonstration of competence:

    1. Completing any hunter education or hunter safety course approved by the Department of Game and Inland Fisheries or a similar agency of another state;
    2. Completing any National Rifle Association firearms safety or training course;
    3. Completing any firearms safety or training course or class available to the general public offered by a law-enforcement agency, junior college, college, or private or public institution or organization or firearms training school utilizing instructors certified by the National Rifle Association or the Department of Criminal Justice Services;
    4. Completing any law-enforcement firearms safety or training course or class offered for security guards, investigators, special deputies, or any division or subdivision of law enforcement or security enforcement;
    5. Presenting evidence of equivalent experience with a firearm through participation in organized shooting competition or current military service or proof of an honorable discharge from any branch of the armed services;
    6. Obtaining or previously having held a license to carry a firearm in this Commonwealth or a locality thereof, unless such license has been revoked for cause;
    7. Completing any firearms training or safety course or class, including an electronic, video, or on-line course, conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association-certified firearms instructor;
    8. Completing any governmental police agency firearms training course and qualifying to carry a firearm in the course of normal police duties; or
    9. Completing any other firearms training which the court deems adequate.

    A photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes; an affidavit from the instructor, school, club, organization, or group that conducted or taught such course or class attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant; or a copy of any document which shows completion of the course or class or evidences participation in firearms competition shall constitute evidence of qualification under this subsection.


    If the Maryland Senate won't accept languate naming the NRA, the largest firearms training organization in the world second only to the U.S. Military, then I think another lawsuit is going to be necessary.

    The only other suggestion I could offer is to name the NRA class without naming the NRA. For example you could say something like "a basic pistol safety class" or "a basic personal protection outside the home class".

    I checked DE and PA, and could not find a requirement. WV, NC and FL all have something akin to VA, where it says that you need training, and then lists all approved training, to include; NRA.
     

    pcfixer

    Ultimate Member
    May 24, 2009
    5,948
    Marylandstan
    That alienates a large group of people who've had other training previously but you are on the right track. As much as I'd like to see no training requirement stuck to us, the Virginia one above is fairly benign. I've met at least 7 of the nine and maybe #9 depending on their list.

    I've never watched the MD safety video nor do I currently hold a military ID yet I meet state requirements. ;)

    What is NOT neccessary is ANY MSP training requirement. The police or sherriff's are not a training camp for law abiding citizens.
     

    5.7

    Just trying to be free
    Jan 21, 2012
    197
    Looks like it's now a requirement.

    There is NO LIVE FIRE TRAINING REQ'T FOR UTAH

    That BCI course is the course you have to attend for a Utah Permit, like alot of us have done. I did mine last year in Sep. There is no live fire req't, it is more about the laws and how/what you should do in different situations and BASIC gun info like what is SA, DA and DAO etc. Ways to carry. What to do if approached, what not to do etc.

    I have a Florida, Utah and Va. permit. Florida also has no live fire req't. I KNOW West Va. DOES have a Live fire req't, my sister and Bro-in law live in WVa. and both have permits. Other states like Arizona require 8 hour training. Alot of these states do accept a DD214 or a NRA basic firearms safety class cert. That is what I used for my Va. permit, but for Utah, you have to take the Utah class that is taught by a BCI certified instructor. And these guys had to fly to Utah and take the BCI class to be certified to teach the Utah class in the various states outside of Utah.

    Go to Utah's website and you can see the list of approved instructors state by state. There are about 50 or more in MD. I went through Mid Atlantic for mine.

    I think the main point most people might be missing here is the "liability" that the states *thinks* they assume with issuing permits hence the perceived need for training. Think about it, when you buy a handgun now in MD, on your application when you get it back, it is stamped "NOT DIS-APPROVED". I specifically asked why it says that versus "approved" and I was told it is about liability. In other words, if the state "Approves" you and you go do something stupid, then they could be liable. Stupid? YES, but that is the risk adverse, left leaning state we live in.

    I am not worried about the training, the state CAN make it a requirement. Many states do. Even if my current NRA training cert or DD214 is not enough, I'll go do what I have to. I don't like it, but I'll comply. If that is what it takes, I'll do it.
     

    swinokur

    In a State of Bliss
    Patriot Picket
    Apr 15, 2009
    55,394
    Westminster USA
    No live fire in Florida, at least, not at the end of last year when I got mine.

    Incorrect. FL requires live fire

    FLORIDA STATUTE 790.06

    [SIZE=-1]7. Completion of any firearms training or safety course or class conducted by a state-certified or National Rifle Association certified firearms instructor;
    A photocopy of a certificate of completion of any of the courses or classes; or an affidavit from the instructor, school, club, organization, or group that conducted or taught said course or class attesting to the completion of the course or class by the applicant; or a copy of any document which shows completion of the course or class or evidences participation in firearms competition shall constitute evidence of qualification under this paragraph; any person who conducts a course pursuant to subparagraph 2., subparagraph 3., or subparagraph 7., or who, as an instructor, attests to the completion of such courses, must maintain records certifying that he or she observed the student safely handle and discharge the firearm;[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=-1]
    [/SIZE]
     
    Status
    Not open for further replies.

    Users who are viewing this thread

    Latest posts

    Forum statistics

    Threads
    274,930
    Messages
    7,259,487
    Members
    33,350
    Latest member
    Rotorboater

    Latest threads

    Top Bottom