Non FFL Shipping to C&R Holder

Abulg1972 · Aug 31, 2015

The one caveat to using FedEx is that they don't have a locked cage for storing valuables so dropping of a firearm at FedEx does have some risk. UPS hubs do and they are supposed to lock them up, but they don't always do so.

BigDaddy · Aug 31, 2015

I was told years ago, possibly pre 9-11, trying to ship ammo, that it was a lease issue with the shopping center and the UPS store. It sounds plausible but it could have been finger pointing or anti gun franchise owners or managers.

swinokur · Aug 31, 2015

It's not a lease issue. UPS policy specifically prohibits shipping firearms from UPS stores.

They are franchises, not owned or operated by UPS.

whistlersmother · Aug 31, 2015

sxs said:
Yeppers...that's the most safe and usual way! You can verify the C&R's residence address that way. It's only legal to ship to a C&R at the address listed on the 03 FFL. Reduces the chance of some kind'a fraud.

I seem to recall ATF Circular 74-13 address this (look in the Mail Order paragraph). However, its a bit dated,

There was a FAQ, circular, something more recent that indicated secure storage at the alternate shipping address was needed. Can't find that document now, so may be its a figment of my imagination.

Granted, the regulations may have changed.

Also, see this thread: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=20407

good guy 176 · Aug 31, 2015

Abulg1972 said:
A licensee, shipping to another licensee, is not required by law to disclose the contents to Fed Ex or anyone else. See the ATF regulation quoted above. Fed Ex policy just requires that you notify the carrier that you're shipping a firearm, which I always do. They shrug their shoulders and say "okay". Show me the Fed Ex rule that says that I can't ship a firearm through a FedEx/Kinkos store.

UPS always makes you provide a detailed description of the firearm in the shipping info. FedEx has never asked me, and they don't require anything in the shipping ID. I voluntarily tell them that I'm shipping a firearm but they have never asked me and they have never asked for a license, a certification, nada.

I used to ship C&R rifles out of the Laurel UPS hub, over 25 times, until one day in 2014 one of their uninformed jerks, a female, refused to ship an IBM M1 Carbine to a collector friend in IN. I was there with the cartoon open for inspection, the buyer's FFL03 in hand and said "that I am shipping to a collector today." That woman said that it had to go to a Dealer, wheeled and walked away from me, and I was unable to convince her otherwise.

Cursed her out in front of 7-8 other UPS employees and waiting customers, grabbed the container and left, but not without choice words about her incompetence and lack of training. Her supervisor called later and I lit her up.

Some time later I reported that incident and a similar one at Woodstock PO to the Baltimore office of ATF. ATF took no action and suggested that I deal direct with UPS and USPS.

I've learned to expect the unexpected when shipping with any of the major common carriers. Their clerks are normally poorly trained and do not understand their own requirements, let alone Federal or State law.

Lately, I've been using USPS and I do not inform the servicing clerk what is in the box. I have the buyer's FFL on my person and I insure for full value and track.

Lew--Ranger63

sxs · Aug 31, 2015

whistlersmother said:
I seem to recall ATF Circular 74-13 address this (look in the Mail Order paragraph). However, its a bit dated,

There was a FAQ, circular, something more recent that indicated secure storage at the alternate shipping address was needed. Can't find that document now, so may be its a figment of my imagination.

Granted, the regulations may have changed.

Also, see this thread: http://www.mdshooters.com/showthread.php?t=20407

FYI, what I didn't state, but I know is the case...that while the shipping must list the address of the C&R holder, it CAN be redirected to one of the hubs. One of the issues with receiving these things is the 'Adult Signature Required'. After three tries at delivery, they will hold the item briefly (I seem to remember 3 more business days) at the hub. When I was working my old job, that was sometimes a problem since there usually wasn't any adult home (my teen son didn't count). You can... and I have... just contacted them after the first delivery attempt and redirected the shipment to one of the hubs (not just a local store). They will require an ID with your address (such as a MD DL) but will let you get the firearm from the hub. I have received most of my C&Rs by redirecting to a hub that would hold them. (For non-firearm items I usually redirect to a local FedEx or UPS store - that's how I managed to have an ammo problem at Annapolis Kinkos).

Edit: Just re-read WhistlersMother post with the old link about redirecting to a hub (didn't open the link initially). Most of those posts are basically my own experience.

whistlersmother · Sep 1, 2015

sxs said:
FYI, what I didn't state, but I know is the case...that while the shipping must list the address of the C&R holder, it CAN be redirected to one of the hubs. One of the issues with receiving these things is the 'Adult Signature Required'. After three tries at delivery, they will hold the item briefly (I seem to remember 3 more business days) at the hub. When I was working my old job, that was sometimes a problem since there usually wasn't any adult home (my teen son didn't count). You can... and I have... just contacted them after the first delivery attempt and redirected the shipment to one of the hubs (not just a local store). They will require an ID with your address (such as a MD DL) but will let you get the firearm from the hub. I have received most of my C&Rs by redirecting to a hub that would hold them. (For non-firearm items I usually redirect to a local FedEx or UPS store - that's how I managed to have an ammo problem at Annapolis Kinkos).

Edit: Just re-read WhistlersMother post with the old link about redirecting to a hub (didn't open the link initially). Most of those posts are basically my own experience.

Yes, I understand about redirecting to a hub.

I thought you were speaking about specifying a different shipping address to the seller for initial shipping.

Still can't find the FAQ/Circular - I believe, and may be mistaken, that you can have a C&R shipped to a different address than what appears on the FFL03 license.

(It bugs me I can't find this FAQ/Circular now [something newer than Circular 74-13] - may be I read it in the recesses of my mind...) :sad20:

Edit: HA! Found It: https://www.atf.gov/file/4256/download (page 6)

Does this pertain to FFL03?

rico903 · Sep 1, 2015

FYI-since it's a rifle you can ship via USPS as well. Have done it many times. Only dealers can ship a hand gun via USPS. Usually I take any guns I ship to the UPS depot in Hunt Valley/Sparks. Their insurance is far cheaper than the USPS. If a Kinkos store employee gives you a hard time tell them to pull out their rules binder and look it up. I'd ship before last pick up so it's not there overnite.

swinokur · Sep 1, 2015

good guy 176 said:
S
Lately, I've been using USPS and I do not inform the servicing clerk what is in the box. I have the buyer's FFL on my person and I insure for full value and track.

Lew--Ranger63

Postal Regs require if you are asked you must advise if a firearm is in a shipment

432.3 Rifles and Shotguns

Except under 431.2, unloaded rifles and shotguns are mailable. Mailers must comply with the rules and regulations under 27 CFR, Part 478, as well as state and local laws. The mailer may be required by the USPS to establish, by opening the parcel or by written certification, that the rifle or shotgun is unloaded and not ineligible for mailing. The following conditions also apply:

Abulg1972 · Sep 1, 2015

swinokur said:
Postal Regs require if you are asked you must advise if a firearm is in a shipment

The reg you cited speaks about its unloaded status. How are they going to know to ask you if it's unloaded if you haven't told them what it is?

swinokur · Sep 1, 2015

they can always ask "what's in the box?"

All I'm doing is pointing out the rule.

Abulg1972 · Sep 1, 2015

swinokur said:
they can always ask "what's in the box?"

All I'm doing is pointing out the rule.

And I would probably say "wood and metal."

swinokur · Sep 1, 2015

your decision.

My plan is to just answer any questions honestly.

YMMV.

Abulg1972 · Sep 2, 2015

swinokur said:
your decision.

My plan is to just answer any questions honestly.

YMMV.

I always comply with the law and shipper rules, but I never give anything more than is absolutely required - not because I'm trying to hide anything, but just because doing so creates risk of theft, "loss in transit", etc. As a licensee, federal law does not require me to disclose anything to the shipper, so, unless the shipper rule/policy requires disclosure, I don't disclose. I never use USPS because I can send things cheaper through FedEx and shipping FedEx is just a lot easier and lot less of a hassle.

swinokur · Sep 2, 2015

While Federal law doesn't require you to declare to the shipper, both Fed Ex and UPS require it, your FFL not withstanding.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=3968835&postcount=14

UPS only requires notice if it's a handgun

Abulg1972 · Sep 2, 2015

swinokur said:
While Federal law doesn't require you to declare to the shipper, both Fed Ex and UPS require it, your FFL not withstanding.

http://www.mdshooters.com/showpost.php?p=3968835&postcount=14

UPS only requires notice if it's a handgun

I understand all of this. Thanks.

Non FFL Shipping to C&R Holder

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