PERMIT APPLICATION RETURNED

MJD438 · Apr 16, 2012

Merlin said:
Ok, so show me what is a large amount of cash? Also business owners go to the banks all different times. Not just at 2pm every other Friday.

Also consider the bad guy always thing the business owners is rich and they also thing they have big money all of the time. So what is big money? The deposits from Home Depot of the local snowball stand?

Once again, I believe this falls in the category of MSP knows it when they see it...I don't recall anyone posting a link to either COMAR or the Maryland legislation that codifies these data points.

paulstitz · Apr 16, 2012

Merlin said:
Ok, so show me what is a large amount of cash? Also business owners go to the banks all different times. Not just at 2pm every other Friday.

Also consider the bad guy always thinks the business owners is rich and they also think they have big money all of the time. So what is big money? The deposits from Home Depot or the local snowball stand?

Not my rules, MSP's rules.

dlmcbm · Apr 16, 2012

paulstitz said:
For the Business owner they want to see deposit slips with LARGE amounts of cash, then the permit will be restricted to the times the business owner is traveling to or from the bank with a large amount of money.

If I were in this situation as I know some have been denied because there deposits were not big enough. I would take a bank deposit envelope with me to my appeal hearing. Ask everyone how much money is in the deposit envelope/pouch. When they say they don't know I say "exactly" and the robber don't either.... All they see is that it is money that they want $5 or $500 or $5000 they don't know or don't care.

Merlin · Apr 16, 2012

MJD438 said:
Once again, I believe this falls in the category of MSP knows it when they see it...I don't recall anyone posting a link to either COMAR or the Maryland legislation that codifies these data points.

I can tell that every business owner that I personal knew that carried did so 90% of the time. My dad years ago owned a bar inside of Baltimore and he always carried. Everyday he picked up his car keys and .38 S&W.

Years later my next door neighbor owned a small pizza/sub-shop. I also never seen him without his gun.

However I have heard of restricted ccw's, but I never got any details about them.

MJD438 · Apr 16, 2012

Merlin said:
I can tell that every business owner that I personal knew that carried did so 90% of the time. My dad years ago owned a bar inside of Baltimore and he always carried. Everyday he picked up his car keys and .38 S&W.

Years later my next door neighbor owned a small pizza/sub-shop. I also never seen him without his gun.

However I have heard of restricted ccw's, but I never got any details about them.

Trust me, I am not saying that it is the right course of action. I am just stating the comments as I have heard them. MSP was grilled this year during the House of Delegates on "Gun Bill Day" and their answer to several questions was "we don't have that information, we just know it when we see it". As it stands today (since Judge Legg temporarily stayed his decision), G&S in all of its forms is nothing more than a subjective means of enforcing gun control on the populace. There is nothing objective in the process and this state will drag its tired-ass feet on making the permit process an objective process until they are dragged through and worn down by the court system.

Mr H · Apr 16, 2012

Merlin said:
Is that true, or is it OK for them to use it during the stay? I would deduce by the judge implementing the stay is him saying I ruled like I did but you still do not have to follow it just yet until he is satisfied he has worked everything out.

Likewise if the 4th give MD a more permit stay that will last through the complete appeal process, there to I think the MSP can proceed as business as normal and keep using G&S to their hearts content. IF/when the one day loose the appeals process, they they will have to stop using it.

And I right or do I have it wrong?

At the very least, MSP seems to THINK that G&S is back in play.

As I'm reading it, that may be their fatal flaw... but I'm plugging along right there with most of us, so don't take my word for it!!

Merlin · Apr 16, 2012

MJD438 said:
Trust me, I am not saying that it is the right course of action. I am just stating the comments as I have heard them. MSP was grilled this year during the House of Delegates on "Gun Bill Day" and their answer to several questions was "we don't have that information, we just know it when we see it". As it stands today (since Judge Legg temporarily stayed his decision), G&S in all of its forms is nothing more than a subjective means of enforcing gun control on the populace. There is nothing objective in the process and this state will drag its tired-ass feet on making the permit process an objective process until they are dragged through and worn down by the court system.

It seems their great legal minds went for the nanny, nanny, nu, nu defense of that for us to know and for you to find out.

Merlin · Apr 16, 2012

mr h said:
At the very least, MSP seems to THINK that G&S is back in play.

As I'm reading it, that may be their fatal flaw... but I'm plugging along right there with most of us, so don't take my word for it!!

I guess there could be a chance they have the right to use G&S during the stay. That is what I think the stay does. Business as normal during the stay. It is interesting that they only seem to be returning the apps that were submitted after the stay. That may tell us either the app's submitted before the stay will, or may be treated differently then they are treating the app's after the stay.

I bet their not 100% sure how the courts would expect them to handle the app's before the stay so they may just sit on them until they are sure.

Inigoes · Apr 16, 2012

Merlin said:
I guess there could be a chance they have the right to use G&S during the stay. That is what I think the stay does. Business as normal during the stay. It is interesting that they only seem to be returning the apps that were submitted after the stay. That may tell us either the app's submitted before the stay will, or may be treated differently then they are treating the app's after the stay.

I bet their not 100% sure how the courts would expect them to handle the app's before the stay so they may just sit on them until they are sure.

Which is what they should of done with the applications post-stay.

They just created their own equal protections problem

Merlin · Apr 16, 2012

paulstitz said:
Not my rules, MSP's rules.

Here is one other thing. I have known of many business owners that carried. But I have never talk to one that told me that had a hard time getting their ccw.

If you own a business does the MSP make it easy for you to get your ccw or do they have the same trouble as the rest of us?

Merlin · Apr 16, 2012

Inigoes said:
Which is what they should of done with the applications post-stay.

They just created their own equal protections problem

But if they can get away with saying things like, "we don't have that information, we just know it when we see it". They will not be very concerned about this.

Inigoes · Apr 16, 2012

Merlin said:
But if they can get away with saying things like, "we don't have that information, we just know it when we see it". They will not be very concerned about this.

They will be saying more than that to Judge Legg, if they wish to keep the temporary stay intact.

That splaining should start on the 19th.

Merlin · Apr 16, 2012

Inigoes said:
They will be saying more than that to Judge Legg, if they wish to keep the temporary stay intact.

That splaining should start on the 19th.

I hope your right and I'm wrong. but I thought they are following the rules and the stay lets them to continue to use G&S? I thought the stay means that Judge Legg is telling them they still do not have to process the app's the new way during the stay and they can continue doing things the old way.

If not that, what is the reason for the stay?

Inigoes · Apr 16, 2012

Merlin said:
I hope your right and I'm wrong. but I thought they are following the rules and the stay lets them to continue to use G&S? I thought the stay means that Judge Legg is telling them they still do not have to process the app's the new way during the stay and they can continue doing things the old way.

If not that, what is the reason for the stay?

Give the state to benefit of the doubt while the judge is dotting the I's and crossing the T's for a procedural rule.

Not to mention the state that has acted in bad faith during the stay ( abusing the stay per se).

Mr H · Apr 16, 2012

Merlin said:
But if they can get away with saying things like, "we don't have that information, we just know it when we see it". They will not be very concerned about this.

As evidenced by the hearings, and by the response both here and in the Assembly, I think it's fair to say they're NOT getting away with it.

Well, at least among the informed... which then begs the question, "Are we really informing enough people?"

Merlin · Apr 16, 2012

mr h said:
As evidenced by the hearings, and by the response both here and in the Assembly, I think it's fair to say they're NOT getting away with it.

Well, at least among the informed... which then begs the question, "Are we really informing enough people?"

Probably not. I bet the members of. MS is only a small fraction of the gun people in Maryland

Mr H · Apr 16, 2012

Merlin said:
Probably not. I bet the members of. MS is only a small fraction of the gun people in Maryland

I've mentioned many times that the "interested" people in Maryland (and MDS/MSI are not near all of them) amount to maybe 1/3 of all shooters/hunters/collectors in the state. Our issues here are not on the radar of most folks.

Take the interest in the past couple months (weeks, especially), and multiply it by 4 or 5... If the rest of the gun owners in MD can be activated, we win hands-down.

Multiply that interest by another 2, and IMO you change the whole state on several fronts.

iSHOOT · Apr 16, 2012

csanc123 said:
This is what folks have been getting (from the first post):

http://www.box.com/s/92306766413790660714

If i know my state at all, they'll take every dime from you they can. So by returning applications and money saying "the State Police are obligated to continue to apply the law to all permit applications as enacted..." just smells like bs. Either they have no choice but to deny the applications and cash your checks...OR they have to obey the ruling and grant the requests... I just cant understand how not taking applications is legal. Is this the new way they control it?

Speaker2Wolves · Apr 16, 2012

Mooseman said:
I don't think so. The application was not disapproved, it was simply returned. This is probably why they are handling applications like this. Their record will stand.

Actually, I think it may be to avoid additional lawsuits. Seems as though they are refusing to process in order to avoid having to deny. Application denials could be grounds for additional lawsuits, possibly even class action suits. But merely refunding your money may mean you don't have standing to sue?

I'm not an attorney, so could be completely wrong about this, but the logic seems right.

Inigoes · Apr 16, 2012

Speaker2Wolves said:
Actually, I think it may be to avoid additional lawsuits. Seems as though they are refusing to process in order to avoid having to deny. Application denials could be grounds for additional lawsuits, possibly even class action suits. But merely refunding your money may mean you don't have standing to sue?

I'm not an attorney, so could be completely wrong about this, but the logic seems right.

The MSP sent a rejection letter which is the same as a denial letter.

Only difference is the MSP didn't keep the 75 dollars.

PERMIT APPLICATION RETURNED

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