This happened today, 03/27/2014....CONFISCATION

GUNSnROTORS said:

Figure your job dictates that you must interact with some truly evil people, possibly impacting your posts on this thread ... and that I'm naive on the ins-and-outs of the PBJ topic - but isn't "innocent until proven guilty" the intrinsic and fundamental principle of our legal system??

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GUNSnROTORS said:

Figure your job dictates that you must interact with some truly evil people, possibly impacting your posts on this thread ... and that I'm naive on the ins-and-outs of the PBJ topic - but isn't "innocent until proven guilty" the intrinsic and fundamental principle of our legal system??

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Name Taken said:

Who promised these folks that taking a PBJ would not have any affect on their life down the road? I've sat through many of court cases and never heard that.

Here's a novel idea...if you are INNOCENT don't take a plea deal.

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Name Taken said:

The simple solution....get rid of this PBJ non sense.

The state can either find your guilty, not guilty, or STET the case...well maybe not STET because that brings up even more complicated issues.

I get the idea that a constitutional right shouldn't be infringed upon based off of finding of anything other then GUILTY. That's a fundamental and literally finding of the law.

I'd argue that based on fundamental interpretations of the law that PBJ's have no business in the court setting. The basic principle of our legal system is to punish those who are found guilty of a crime and to FREE those who can not be proved beyond a reasonable doubt to have committed a crime. To tell someone "if you don't mess up again we'll brush this under the rug" doesn't really flow with me. It's abused by the judges, states attorneys, and defense attorneys and I'm assuming whoever wrote it into law didn't really intend for it to be employed the way it currently is.

Why or how we got away from it is beyond me.

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fred2207 said:

Don't be illogical... The law effected by PBJ did not exist until 281 was signed into law... The morons enforcing the confiscation process do not realize it or simply don't care...

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zoostation said:

A lot of defendants in domestic violence cases will accept a PBJ plea bargain whether they are guilty or innocent, rather than roll the dice with a judge or jury. I still think most people who get PBJ's for DV assaults are guilty, but I do think there is a very significant minority who are not. The bottom line is even innocent people know a domestic violence conviction will ruin their lives when they have to make a decision to fight for a not guilty verdict or just plea out.

Most Assistant State's Attorneys I have met seem afraid to cast doubt on even the shakiest of domestic violence accusations, and will almost always take it to trial if the defendant doesn't take a plea. I'm not saying domestic violence isn't a problem and that the (truly) guilty shouldn't be seriously punished, of course they should. But I also think there are a lot of guys in this state with PBJ records for domestic assault who were probably falsely accused and still agreed to a PBJ, because they were told, "after all, it's not really a conviction."

Besides, for me the bottom line is the PBJ should be exactly that. Probation Before Judgment. If the state wants a conviction disposition that will affect someone's rights for the rest of their life, then it should have to get one. Even if it means going to trial. Justice shouldn't bastardized because the district courts are set up to be case backlog clearinghouses.

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GUNSnROTORS said:

Thank you, Sir!

BTW, I have a relative (by marriage) who was accused of this by his ex-wife. She later recanted following the divorce settlement. She told family members (myself included) that her divorce lawyer pushed her to make the claim for an improved outcome. He's a great guy too ...

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rseymorejr said:

What's next? Being charged with a crime?

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Mr H said:

There were several bills submitted this session that would have granted MSP near-blanket authority to do indefinite lookbacks for this sort of thing.

Apparently, the bills weren't needed.....................

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Johnthetoolguy said:

Exactly, so why did the TWO regulated firearms "registration"s get NOT disapproved?
Why come and take them after they have been picked up instead of disapproving?...........Remeber, I said he just picked up the second regulated firearm two days ago.

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ShallNotInfringe said:

Imagine if every PBJ ever issued had to be retried...

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rseymorejr said:

The lawyer?

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Mr H said:

Here's the wrinkle...

Probation Before Judgment

OK... might need some explanation to some folks, since there are two words there that sound kinda scary.

We read it "Probation BEFORE Judgment." Redemption allowed, not enough info to convict, innocent until proven guilty... all that arcane crap

The OTHER guys read it, "Probation Before JUDGMENT!" An assumption of guilt, and they will take their pound of flesh.

2014

with a hammer

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Mr H said:

Now I'm wondering....

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GUNSnROTORS said:

I'll ask, but must disclose context to him first ... and I'm guessing he wouldn't appreciate me discussing it further here. So if I can get an ID, I'll pm you. In that event, up to you to out the lawyer ...

I avoid his ex-wife like the plague, so zero chance of me getting info from her. She's scared me since I married into the family >20 years ago.

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Johnthetoolguy said:

I am going to state a few facts. Too much information here would not be appropriate. I am just going to say what needs to be said.

1). Today at 6:00 am MSP knocked on the door of a friend. He was already at work and his wife answered the door. MSP was there to CONFISCATE a couple firearms.
2). My buddy's wife called him right away and he came home.
3). They were there for his 26 year old son's recently purchased regulated firearms.
4). The young man was also at work already which is irrelevant because he does not live at this address now.
5). MSP did NOT ask to see any of my buddy's firearms.
6). The young man bought and waited for NOT DISAPROVED paperwork and picked up said regulated firearm last December.
7). Young man picked up another regulated firearm a couple days ago.
8). Said young man keeps most of his firearms at Dad's house because he has not moved his safe to his house yet.
9). Police only wanted these two regulated firearms. They let my buddy keep his son's unregulated firearms since the young man does not reside at this address.
10). Young man has a C&R licence obtained a few months ago.
11). Yes, he had a PBJ when he was 17. I am not giving details.
12). My buddy and his son now have Rusty Shackleford's IP info.
13). If the kid is smart, he will call the man.

I did not post this to get a bunch of responses about the law. We will let the young man deal with all that stuff with a professional, thank you.

I just wanted you guys (and gals) to know that this happed to someone I know.

Lastly.......NO, neither Dad nor son are members of this forum.

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WeaponsCollector said:

Too bad I lost my guns in a bad boating accident, so when the JBT's come they will leave empty handed.

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