Trigger Pull or Wrist Issue?

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  • johnlax38

    NOOB
    Nov 19, 2013
    196
    Crofton, MD
    I tested out my new M&P9 yesterday. The M&P9 I purchased has a 10lb trigger. I had to purchase the 10 round mag compliant model which also included a heavy ass trigger. I plan to do trigger work in the future.

    My target showed I am breaking my wrist according to this.

    I put a 140 rounds through yesterday and by the last 50ish I had a consistent group.I had a nice solid grouping but they were are on the lower right of the center of the target. I will post a pic later tonight to help visualize how low and right.

    The M&P9 I purchased has a 10lb trigger. I assume the issue shown above has to do with trigger pull? I have yet to receive hand gun training which I plan to take.

    From what I have read and watched I should be pushing 'forward' with my right hand, shooting right handed. Using my left hand I should be pushing to the right, horizontal to control recoil which is coming up and to the left. But not pushing so much that it moves the gun off target.

    I tried putting the target above my sight and my sight on the target. I did better with the sight on the target but I was always low and to the right no matter what.

    Any thoughts or comments, I appreciate all tips, tricks and criticism.

    aqysareq.jpg


    jadynedy.jpg
     
    Last edited:

    amoebicmagician

    Samopal Goblin
    Dec 26, 2012
    4,174
    Columbia, MD
    how are you holding the gun?

    Whether you're in a weaver, modified weaver, or an isoceles stance, a good thumbs forward grip is the key to shooting consistently.

    You want the web of your hand as high up on the backstrap as possible, and then tightly wrap your right hand around the gun so that your index finger rests pad on the trigger face. Take your left hand and stack your thumb under the thumb of your shooting hand, and make sure 360* of the grip real estate is covered by your hands, both thumbs should be pointing toward your target.

    Depending on your stance, elbow position and keeping the gun in line with your arm or not makes a big difference, but the biggest issue is trigger control. It is much harder to pull a trigger straight back than you can possibly imagine until it becomes ingrained in muscle memory, and even then if you don't shoot for awhile it atrophies until you shoot a couple rounds and re-discover that programming.

    Dry firing WITHOUT BLINKING and making sure your sights don't move at all helps immensely.
     

    RobMoore

    The Mad Scientist
    Feb 10, 2007
    4,765
    QA
    I hate those target correction charts. If you don't know what you're doing, they can be very misleading. If you know what you're doing, you don't need them.

    If your shots are grouped low, one of two things is wrong. Either your sights are off, or more likely you had them aimed low because you moved them there when you broke the shot.

    Try not to do the second one.



    Edit to add: all those charts and other poor methods of instruction chase their tails trying to tell you what you're doing wrong. That is an ineffective way of approaching the problem. Stopping yourself from "breaking your wrist" or "jerking the trigger" or "heeling" or any number of other problems won't make you shoot well, because fixing one doesn't stop you from performing all the other errors.

    DON'T worry about what you're doing wrong. DO what is CORRECT. Align the sights and keep them aligned all the way through the trigger press. It is not enough to align them and then press the trigger. No matter how fast you break the shot, movement can occur. You must concentrate on holding them aligned until the recoil of the gun forces them off target.
     

    Dave Taylor

    Senior Member
    May 29, 2012
    2,512
    Change to a malt liquor and use a larger glass with less ice.


    I'm sorry, the devil made me do it. :)
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,410
    Glen Burnie
    Dry firing WITHOUT BLINKING and making sure your sights don't move at all helps immensely.

    I would agree with this if the eyes had anything to do with trigger press.

    Truth be told the eyes close instinctively during the shot.

    I agree with Rob, those charts are pretty much crap.
    Impossible to diagnose a shooting issue in a forum.
    I don't care how you're standing, what pad of your finger is on the trigger, what eye is open or closed.
    Front sight on the target and smooth trigger is all that matters. Once you learn WHY that combination is important. Now, that being said, stance, trigger finger, etc... is just for the beginner who has to start somewhere.
    Precision bullseye shooting or self defense shooting. Two different animals.
     

    ViperRy

    Active Member
    May 26, 2009
    934
    Annapolis, MD
    You must have bought an MA compliant M&P 9. Installing an apex kit will help, however working on the fundamentals of pistol shooting is they key to improving.

    Good instruction is invaluable. Take a look at pistol courses offered by some of the IPs here such as CCJA and CMCT.

    While you wait for wait for one of the courses, also take a look at the magpul art of the dynamic handgun video. Practice dry firing some of the drills.
     

    Crab Bait

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 2, 2011
    1,372
    Pasadena
    how are you holding the gun?

    Whether you're in a weaver, modified weaver, or an isoceles stance, a good thumbs forward grip is the key to shooting consistently.


    You want the web of your hand as high up on the backstrap as possible, and then tightly wrap your right hand around the gun so that your index finger rests pad on the trigger face. Take your left hand and stack your thumb under the thumb of your shooting hand, and make sure 360* of the grip real estate is covered by your hands, both thumbs should be pointing toward your target.

    Depending on your stance, elbow position and keeping the gun in line with your arm or not makes a big difference, but the biggest issue is trigger control. It is much harder to pull a trigger straight back than you can possibly imagine until it becomes ingrained in muscle memory, and even then if you don't shoot for awhile it atrophies until you shoot a couple rounds and re-discover that programming.

    Dry firing WITHOUT BLINKING and making sure your sights don't move at all helps immensely.

    These pics helped me...
     

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    ShoreShooter

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 27, 2013
    1,042
    1) Dry fire. A lot. If you can hold it steady in dry fire, you can hold it steady in live fire. If you have work to do in holding it steady in dry fire, work on that and save the ammo.

    2) I had that pistol. I hated it, and sold it.

    3) If you hold it rock steady in dry fire, your issue is flinching in live fire, anticipating the sound and recoil. You should have already have invested in good ear protection, but if not, do so SOON. First and foremost to protect your hearing, but secondly to reduce the flinching instinct that builds fast from bad habits built on that loud sound.

    4) Experiment with the different backstraps that come with that pistol. The one you think feels good may not be the one that works best for you. With your eyes closed, bring the pistol up to a shooting position. Open your eyes and look down the sight. The backstrap that works best is the one where you are most naturally aiming properly with your eyes shut.

    5) When shooting, focus your eyes on the front sight, not the target. You cannot focus on the sight and the target at the same time. The correct choice is the front sight.

    Others have commented on grip and stance. If you get that right, and are still shooting low, it is flinching. Dry fire a lot at home. Dry fire at the range before shooting live. Go back to dry fire any time you begin shooting low again.

    Repeating a bad habit over and over again just makes it harder to break. Shooting more won't solve it.

    What will solve it is shooting well. When you are aiming at the target (not above it to compensate) and hit the target well, pause for a second to let it sink in what it felt like to do things correctly. Note your grip and stance. Note the lack of flinching. Note how you pulled the trigger. Remember that feeling, and try to replicate it again. When you are shooting well, keep shooting. If you are screwing up, take a short break to break the bad vibes, and think.

    One drill that helps with flinching is shooting quickly. Don't try to hold things steady for a long period of aiming. Come on target, and shoot. Shoot secondary shots as soon as you are back on target, not rushed but by no means leisurely. Don't give yourself so much time to think and anticipate the sound and recoil. Do your thinking before you bring up the pistol to aim and shoot, and then just do it.
     

    johnlax38

    NOOB
    Nov 19, 2013
    196
    Crofton, MD
    Thank you everyone for your input. Added photos.

    I am holding the fire arm as shown above. I do have snapcaps and have been practicing. Practicing so much my wife called me a creep for playing with my gun every night, hah.

    I tried the largest grips that came with the gun. Dry firing with the medium grips feels more comfortable. I will give these a try at the range.

    Regarding some of the comments above I am anticipating the fire, not because I am scared but to try and control the recoil. I guess this is apart of the issue.

    When dry firing I can see a little movement so I will practice more. I will check out the video.

    Thank you all again.

    - mobile
     

    ShoreShooter

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 27, 2013
    1,042
    The smaller backstrap should help center up the shots. With too large a grip you are forced to slightly twist the pistol in your hand to the right to reach the trigger.

    You know how some pistol models have a trigger guard that is flat in front of the guard? For grip styles where your left index finger goes there to help steady things.

    Instead of that, try placing your left index finger straight out but under the trigger guard, to sort of support the pistol. If may help support it, but perhaps more so you are more likely to feel it when you dip the pistol in anticipation of recoil.

    I agree flinching isn't about fear of recoil. It is about pushing in anticipation of the shot to try to control recoil. Don't. Don't limp wrist it, but allow some flip to occur. Control this instead by allowing a SLIGHT break your right elbow rather than locking it and let that absorb some recoil.
     

    Deep Creek Rock

    .._. .._ _._. _._ .._
    This is a very good fundamental for pistol shooting, written by Masaad Ayoob. Most of the pictures show a 1911, but would apply to any semi auto, and some parts of it to revolver shooting. If you apply his techniques, it will help you shoot more accurately.

    http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob85.html

    If you suspect the sights may be striking off, rest firing the pistol off a pistol rest, can help you diagnose if its a pistol problem, instead of the shooter. If your pistol does not strikes where it should when rest fired, then suspect the pistol sights may need adjusted, if they can be adjusted.

    Another option is to have another shooter shoot the pistol, and see if the results are the same.
     

    Mooseman

    R.I.P.- Hooligan #4
    Jan 3, 2012
    18,048
    Western Maryland
    This is a very good fundamental for pistol shooting, written by Masaad Ayoob. Most of the pictures show a 1911, but would apply to any semi auto, and some parts of it to revolver shooting. If you apply his techniques, it will help you shoot more accurately.

    http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob85.html

    If you suspect the sights may be striking off, rest firing the pistol off a pistol rest, can help you diagnose if its a pistol problem, instead of the shooter. If your pistol does not strikes where it should when rest fired, then suspect the pistol sights may need adjusted, if they can be adjusted.

    Another option is to have another shooter shoot the pistol, and see if the results are the same.

    Listen to Roc. He is the Hooligan test shooter. If we want to check a guns accuracy, we give it to Roc. If we want to see if it will blow up in your face, they give it to me. Rocs advice to me has greatly improved my shooting, but he still has more teaching to do. :D
     

    johnlax38

    NOOB
    Nov 19, 2013
    196
    Crofton, MD
    This is a very good fundamental for pistol shooting, written by Masaad Ayoob. Most of the pictures show a 1911, but would apply to any semi auto, and some parts of it to revolver shooting. If you apply his techniques, it will help you shoot more accurately.

    http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob85.html

    If you suspect the sights may be striking off, rest firing the pistol off a pistol rest, can help you diagnose if its a pistol problem, instead of the shooter. If your pistol does not strikes where it should when rest fired, then suspect the pistol sights may need adjusted, if they can be adjusted.

    Another option is to have another shooter shoot the pistol, and see if the results are the same.

    Thank you, a good read. The milking exercise was cool.

    - mobile
     

    TxAggie

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 25, 2012
    4,734
    Anne Arundel County, MD
    An old Army tip on your dry fire: balance a coin on the top of the barrel slide just behind the front sight (larger coins are better). Dry fire trying to keep the coin steady without falling off.

    Edit: oh, and I'm fairly new to M&P's also but I learned you MUST cover the target for proper sight picture.
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,410
    Glen Burnie
    Seeing movement while dry firing is normal. This is no indicator that you are flinching while firing. Although you probably are.
    Firing the pistol, no matter how accurate or inaccurate your shots may be, is the only way to get over the flinching.
    The major hurdle you have right now is to not be disappointed and frustrated because you aren't making perfect shots.
    Don't waste your ammo by shooting quickly. Be slow and deliberate as you get used to everything. Now, that being said, there's nothing wrong with a little rapid fire to get yourself used to the muzzle blast. Just do it knowing that your shots will be all over the place and the point is not working in sight alignment, but that it is just you getting yourself a little more used to the bang.

    One other thing, stay focused on shooting the bullseye, not your group. People tend to like seeing that one big hole in the paper. That's fine as long as it's center of the target. Ignore those stray shots off center and keep going for perfect bullseye.

    The mental game of shooting is what makes it tough for a lot of people. If you find yourself wanting to keep looking at where your shot lands after each shot, then you are messing with the rhythm of resetting your sight picture for the next shot. Try just loading and shooting one round each time until you get the hang of things.
     

    Blaster229

    God loves you, I don't.
    MDS Supporter
    Sep 14, 2010
    46,410
    Glen Burnie
    I'm pretty sure your left hand should not be pushing right.

    Correct. It shouldn't be pushing at all. It should be squeezing the right hand onto the hand grip. Picture the left hand finger tips squeezing the back of the right hand, helping the Palm/fingers make a "contact patch", "weld", whatever your want to call it, against the hand grip.
    And the Palm of the left hand squeezing the right hand finger tips onto the left side grip.
    At no time should the left arm be forcing itself to counteract pressure from the right arm pushing to the left.
     

    johnlax38

    NOOB
    Nov 19, 2013
    196
    Crofton, MD
    Correct. It shouldn't be pushing at all. It should be squeezing the right hand onto the hand grip. Picture the left hand finger tips squeezing the back of the right hand, helping the Palm/fingers make a "contact patch", "weld", whatever your want to call it, against the hand grip.
    And the Palm of the left hand squeezing the right hand finger tips onto the left side grip.
    At no time should the left arm be forcing itself to counteract pressure from the right arm pushing to the left.

    Thanks guys. Maybe I misunderstood what this guy was talking about. I used this video as a reference.

    Watch "How To Properly Grip A Semi-Auto Pistol" on YouTube
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iQb8j_hXnM&feature=youtube_gdata_player


    - mobile
     

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