A Curious Swiss 1911

Abulg1972 · Feb 5, 2015

Machodoc said:
This is why I'm becoming pretty much convinced that the hand-selecting is being done by women in the back room who think that the criteria for best is whichever one looks the prettiest. It's pretty clear that whoever is pulling those hand-selects hasn't a clue about what makes a firearm collectible.

The fact that these are hand select makes them all the more egregious. Come on ... Aim was not born yesterday. Any half-wit would think, you know, we should probably contact the customer about this ...

I would be really, really pissed.

toolness1 · Feb 5, 2015

Why do the 1911's have a different style front sight with no protective ears?

BinaryBoris · Feb 6, 2015

Yeah I checked my Swiss rifles book as well and didn't see anything. I also posted up on the Swiss rifles forum as well and am playing wait and see.

I look at my 1911 two ways:

First, yes AIM should have disclosed that some of the receivers were drilled and tapped if they were aware of this fact. Also, they shouldn't have sent any hand-picked rifles out with drilled/tapped anything. (However, I'm actually glad mine has this enhancement).

I do have to respectfully disagree with equating these modified 1911's with Bubba's notorious type of work. Maybe I just view Bubba'd guns differently, in that I perceive those to be butchered guns for the sake of making them look "cool". Instead, I hold the Swiss legacy of marksmanship in much higher regard. These are rifles that were commonly used in target shooting matches and (given their mechanical condition) were extremely well taken care of. I was lucky enough to get an example that is nearly 100 years old and would be considered in remarkable shape even if it were 1/2 that age.

Now, if it were true that this was going to be my only 1911 then yes, I would likely return it. However, that's not the case. I wanted a 1911 in its original configuration and I eventually wanted one I could scope so that I could realize the full potential of the rifle's accuracy. Given the limitations on non-invasive scoping alternatives for the 1911, that would mean having to drill and tap - and it would also mean I couldn't use my C&R to purchase (as this would be me making permanent modifications). I don't have that problem with the K31 Ste. Marie mounts.

I guess my point is this: I do agree that anyone receiving a drilled/tapped 1911 absolutely has every right to be pissed, because this is not what was advertised. However, I also think anyone receiving this rifle also has every right to be thrilled. It all depends on what you intend to use the rifle for (and whether or not you plan on buying another in the future).

The rifle I have clearly had its scope mount added a long time ago, judging by the normal evident wear. It is also historically accurate in that it is consistent with the fine tradition of Swiss marksmanship and target competition.

That said, I do think AIM's reputation is on the line here. How they handle the issues will say a lot. It's troubling to think that drilled/tapped receivers would go out as a "best of 5" hand pick.

BinaryBoris · Feb 6, 2015

Sorry that was almost tl;dr…

Crib notes: I love the scope mount and it will hopefully allow me to do ridiculously awesome shooting with this rifle. It's also bullish*t that this got past a $20 "hand pick".

I'm thrilled and I am pissed at the same time.

Therapy? I'll have AIM refund my $20 hand select (at the very least) and then find a 2nd 1911 (from somewhere else probably).

Who am I kidding, I was going to want two of these rifles anyway...

BinaryBoris · Feb 6, 2015

toolness1 said:
Ive also been dying to see how one of these Swiss rifles will shoot with a scope.

I finally did get a Swiss Products mount for my K-31 (clamp-on) but I haven't gotten around to installing it.

Sorry forgot to add … get that clamp-on mount on your K-31 - they are awesome! I am an average shot and this is the 10 shot group
I managed after getting my cheap 3-9x scope zeroed in. I hope to do even better with my ßüßßa'd (lol :beer:

) 1911.

Orange bullseye is 1" diameter, next ring is 2" diameter. Shot at 100 yards with GP11:

0_FCRXuv_R3p_Bdd_Uo_ZDCq_AMWMpm_b_Cnu_TJyssc6ir_E_F0.jpg

PS I just learned something amazing. The name "Bubba" actually originated in Germany. Given that the primary language in Switzerland is German, it is highly likely that there are many Bubbas living in Switzerland and, as a result, my 1911 indeed has been Bubba'd. I stand corrected!

Machodoc · Feb 6, 2015

BinaryBoris said:
PS I just learned something amazing. The name "Bubba" actually originated in Germany. Given that the primary language in Switzerland is German, it is highly likely that there are many Bubbas living in Switzerland and, as a result, my 1911 indeed has been Bubba'd. I stand corrected!

I challenge the hell out of this one.

The name "Bubba" originated in the Southern U.S.. Back in the days when it was common for Southerners to refer to their siblings as just "sister" and "brother," it was how some very young children pronounced the word, "brother."

Sisters were likewise called, "Sis," "Sissy," "Sistah" (or "Sustah").

These days, we tend to just refer to siblings by name, but most of us still call our parents, "Mother," "Mom," "Momma," "Mommy," "Ma," ("Dad," etc.).

I actually grew up being called, "Bubba" by my younger siblings. My mom was "Sis," or "Sistah," to her family as a child.

Threeband · Feb 6, 2015

"Bubba" is a Southern American form, and we use it with a specialized connotation which would be very different from anything the same word would suggest to a German or Swiss German.

That said, the root "Bub" is common to all these dialects and languages. In German, "Bub" or "Bubi" denotes a young boy. I doubt it connotes a drunken redneck with a dremel and a collectible milsurp.

-------

I wonder if some of the more obscure West Virginia dialects include forms such as "Sistamaw" or "Bubbapa"?

Abulg1972 · Feb 6, 2015

BinaryBoris said:
Yeah I checked my Swiss rifles book as well and didn't see anything. I also posted up on the Swiss rifles forum as well and am playing wait and see.

I look at my 1911 two ways:

First, yes AIM should have disclosed that some of the receivers were drilled and tapped if they were aware of this fact. Also, they shouldn't have sent any hand-picked rifles out with drilled/tapped anything. (However, I'm actually glad mine has this enhancement).

I do have to respectfully disagree with equating these modified 1911's with Bubba's notorious type of work. Maybe I just view Bubba'd guns differently, in that I perceive those to be butchered guns for the sake of making them look "cool". Instead, I hold the Swiss legacy of marksmanship in much higher regard. These are rifles that were commonly used in target shooting matches and (given their mechanical condition) were extremely well taken care of. I was lucky enough to get an example that is nearly 100 years old and would be considered in remarkable shape even if it were 1/2 that age.

Now, if it were true that this was going to be my only 1911 then yes, I would likely return it. However, that's not the case. I wanted a 1911 in its original configuration and I eventually wanted one I could scope so that I could realize the full potential of the rifle's accuracy. Given the limitations on non-invasive scoping alternatives for the 1911, that would mean having to drill and tap - and it would also mean I couldn't use my C&R to purchase (as this would be me making permanent modifications). I don't have that problem with the K31 Ste. Marie mounts.

I guess my point is this: I do agree that anyone receiving a drilled/tapped 1911 absolutely has every right to be pissed, because this is not what was advertised. However, I also think anyone receiving this rifle also has every right to be thrilled. It all depends on what you intend to use the rifle for (and whether or not you plan on buying another in the future).

The rifle I have clearly had its scope mount added a long time ago, judging by the normal evident wear. It is also historically accurate in that it is consistent with the fine tradition of Swiss marksmanship and target competition.

That said, I do think AIM's reputation is on the line here. How they handle the issues will say a lot. It's troubling to think that drilled/tapped receivers would go out as a "best of 5" hand pick.

What makes you think that these rails/holes were added by a Swiss Bubba rather than an American Bubba?

To me, Bubba = anyone who took a correct rifle and permanently altered it.

yellowsled · Feb 6, 2015

Swiss Bubba or American Bubba. Bubba is Bubba

Doesnt really friggin matter. That is not original to the gun. Was not Mil issue. Period.

Abulg1972 · Feb 6, 2015

Bubba Gump or Bubba Müller, it's all Bubba.

Abulg1972 · Feb 6, 2015

toolness1 said:
Why do the 1911's have a different style front sight with no protective ears?

Because a new front sight was developed between the start of production of the Model 1911 infantry rifle in 1912 and the start of production of the Model 1911 carbine in 1914.

BinaryBoris · Feb 6, 2015

This is fun!

Abulg1972 said:
What makes you think that these rails/holes were added by a Swiss Bubba rather than an American Bubba?

To me, Bubba = anyone who took a correct rifle and permanently altered it.

My first clue is that these rifles were recently imported into the United States. I guess it's possible that they were imported years ago, modified by an American Bubba, exported out of the country, then re-imported, but I'm going with no on that one.

Machodoc said:
I challenge the hell out of this one.

The name "Bubba" originated in the Southern U.S.. Back in the days when it was common for Southerners to refer to their siblings as just "sister" and "brother," it was how some very young children pronounced the word, "brother."

Sisters were likewise called, "Sis," "Sissy," "Sistah" (or "Sustah").

These days, we tend to just refer to siblings by name, but most of us still call our parents, "Mother," "Mom," "Momma," "Mommy," "Ma," ("Dad," etc.).

I actually grew up being called, "Bubba" by my younger siblings. My mom was "Sis," or "Sistah," to her family as a child.

When looking into the origin of the name I did see where Bubba was used as far back as the 1860's in Southern U.S. in the manner you described. I also read that its origination goes even further back in Germany as a derivation of "Buba" (or little boy).

yellowsled said:
Swiss Bubba or American Bubba. Bubba is Bubba

Doesnt really friggin matter. That is not original to the gun. Was not Mil issue. Period.

I guess I see a slight yet important difference between "not original to the gun" and "bubba'd". There is a well-documented and rich history of Swiss marksmanship that includes extensive use of the Schmidt Rubin and K31 rifles for competition. Within this tradition of marksmanship, modifications were made to allow for diopter sights or other optics. These include the addition of drilled and tapped rails on the receiver.

Original to the gun? No. Military issue? No. Makes the rifle more or less valuable? Depends on the buyer and what he or she wants to do with it.

Like I said, I intended on clamping on a scope to a 1911 at some point so I could realize the full accuracy potential of this amazing line of rifles. The clamp on mounts - while ostensibly effective - are unsightly to me. To have a rail mount attached to this rifle would have easily cost $100, so I consider this a bonus.

I'm under no illusions that this is a "correct" original rifle, but it's a far cry from what I perceive as a bubba'd firearm. I'd be more inclined to refer to it as "sporterized" at best. Knowing this was not at all uncommon for Swiss shooters to do for the sake of improved accuracy (not so it could "look cool") makes me inclined to excuse the actions of the previous owner.

And - the most important point here - is that this gives me a valid excuse for buying another Swiss rifle! I think we can all agree that is the only thing that really matters, right? (Swiss Flu support group time)

That and AIM shouldn't have shipped rifles like this out if they were charging a "hand select" fee. Anyone who received this rifle has a very good reason for being pissed. This rifle is one of many Swiss rifles I own and will own in the near future, so I consider it a major plus.

BinaryBoris · Feb 6, 2015

I do want to repeat and stress: I agree that anyone who received this rifle with a drilled and tapped anything has a right to be 100% pissed and should get a full refund including shipping costs. The only reason I am not pissed is because I intend on owning more than one 1911 (specifically, an unaltered original military issue 1911) to go along with my several Swiss rifles.

amoebicmagician · Feb 6, 2015

BinaryBoris said:
Sorry forgot to add … get that clamp-on mount on your K-31 - they are awesome! I am an average shot and this is the 10 shot group
I managed after getting my cheap 3-9x scope zeroed in. I hope to do even better with my ßüßßa'd (lol ) 1911.

Orange bullseye is 1" diameter, next ring is 2" diameter. Shot at 100 yards with GP11:

PS I just learned something amazing. The name "Bubba" actually originated in Germany. Given that the primary language in Switzerland is German, it is highly likely that there are many Bubbas living in Switzerland and, as a result, my 1911 indeed has been Bubba'd. I stand corrected!

Discounting that flier on the right that group would have been among my best on any firearm before I took the time to really practice trigger control and breathing.

I really can't wait to see the pics for the 1911 with the scope!

Machodoc · Feb 6, 2015

BinaryBoris said:
This is fun!

When looking into the origin of the name I did see where Bubba was used as far back as the 1860's in Southern U.S. in the manner you described. I also read that its origination goes even further back in Germany as a derivation of "Buba" (or little boy).

From the many original/primary texts that I've read over my many years of doing historical research, I can assure you that the use of variations of the words "brother" and "sister" in the South far pre-dated the 1860s. That's an interesting time period, though, because it may suggest that only during/after the civil war that people from the north were aware of the practice?

As for the origin being German, the facts don't seem to support that. It's more likely to be coincidence. In areas that had heavy German immigration, such as Detroit and Toledo, you don't ever hear people called "Bubba" unless someone's making fun of a Southerner. You do, on rare occasion, hear an older person use, "Bubi" ... pronounced "Booby".

Conversely, the areas of the South where the nickname "Bubba" is common are largely old Scotch-Irish heritage with few, if any, Germans. There are some pockets of the South that had German settlements--notably parts of Texas, the early Moravian settlement in western NC, a very small group brought into colonial VA to process iron ore, etc.--but no areas with substantial German settlements. Notable here are the Old South states of the Carolinas and Georgia, where the term, "Bubba" has been rather common for generations, but there was virtually no German immigrant influence.

I think it's coincidence that there are German words for diminutive references to males vs. the traditional Southern morphing of the word, "brother" to "Bubba." I also suspect that the explanation that you found was from someone in the north trying to explain a word that he didn't know sheeyit about.

Abulg1972 · Feb 6, 2015

Have either of you heard anything from Aim?

mawkie · Feb 6, 2015

You have to understand where and how this latest batch of Swiss rifles is coming from. The Swiss gov't cleared out their entire inventory of obsolete arms years ago. What Simpson and other importers have been doing is scouring Switzerland and purchasing SRs from shooting clubs and individuals to import into the USA. The same happened in Sweden, which is how you got all these CG-63s and M96s with a vast array of diopter sights imported a couple of years ago. Ditto for Swiss K-31s. So you get this hodgepodge of mostly military configuration examples with a number of competition modified examples mixed in.
Simpson and MMB Imports sell theirs individually with an accurate description so you know exactly what you're getting. That means no surprises when you open the box. AIM and other higher volume dealers don't have the infrastructure to support that so they roll the dice. Me, I agree with everyone that competition modified examples need to be separated and sold with a caveat. No doubt there will be folk like me who already have all the stock military versions they want and are looking for an example that's already been modified for competition. Which is what I did last spring with the diopter equipped K31 that I bought from MMB.

Augie · Feb 6, 2015

I agree,they should have been separated and buyers should have known what they were getting.

Abulg1972 · Feb 6, 2015

mawkie said:
You have to understand where and how this latest batch of Swiss rifles is coming from. The Swiss gov't cleared out their entire inventory of obsolete arms years ago. What Simpson and other importers have been doing is scouring Switzerland and purchasing SRs from shooting clubs and individuals to import into the USA. The same happened in Sweden, which is how you got all these CG-63s and M96s with a vast array of diopter sights imported a couple of years ago. Ditto for Swiss K-31s. So you get this hodgepodge of mostly military configuration examples with a number of competition modified examples mixed in.
Simpson and MMB Imports sell theirs individually with an accurate description so you know exactly what you're getting. That means no surprises when you open the box. AIM and other higher volume dealers don't have the infrastructure to support that so they roll the dice. Me, I agree with everyone that competition modified examples need to be separated and sold with a caveat. No doubt there will be folk like me who already have all the stock military versions they want and are looking for an example that's already been modified for competition. Which is what I did last spring with the diopter equipped K31 that I bought from MMB.

Oh, I understand where they're getting them. I know they've been scouring Europe for rifles. Where and how they're getting them is beside the point. The point is that they have a duty to disclose what they're selling.

Machodoc · Feb 6, 2015

mawkie said:
Me, I agree with everyone that competition modified examples need to be separated and sold with a caveat. No doubt there will be folk like me who already have all the stock military versions they want and are looking for an example that's already been modified for competition. Which is what I did last spring with the diopter equipped K31 that I bought from MMB.

I wouldn't have been POed to get one with that sight mount on it, especially after I learned about the diopter sights, but I would have been surprised until I researched it--and I would have delighted to have gotten one with the sight actually on it. I agree that reflects the Swiss accuracy shooting heritage.

I was disappointed that mine from AIM had an unexpected extra serial number engraved on the receiver, but not enough to get POed and send it back. I don't consider that to be part of its Swiss heritage, and it wasn't mentioned in their ads, but the gun is otherwise nice ... just not what I'd personally have hand-selected for a collector for their extra $20.

Besides, it gave me an excuse to buy another one that I liked better. I may eventually sell the first one, but probably not, so I guess it's not that bad.

Augie said:
I agree,they should have been separated and buyers should have known what they were getting.

Yes ... and those rifles described as not being original (and why they are not). Some buyers may actually have found that to be something they preferred, for whatever reason (probably not collectors, but maybe hunters).

Abulg1972 said:
Oh, I understand where they're getting them. I know they've been scouring Europe for rifles. Where and how they're getting them is beside the point. The point is that they have a duty to disclose what they're selling.

If I'd gotten one that just had holes tapped for a mount, without the mount, I'd be seething mad. It's hard to argue that it's an advantage when you are going to have a beast of a time getting a correct mount AND a correct sight.

A-- is right, of course, that if they are selling these knowingly to the collector market, they need to disclose what features are on the rifle that a collector may not like. You can depend upon his response being how the law would look at it.

Let's take it to an extreme ... what if the rifle arrived and the barrel had been shortened and it had a plastic stock on it? Same principle, just different degrees of extreme.

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