SKS Type 56 date of manufacture

mgbill · Apr 16, 2014

Just picked up a Type 56 with serial number F6370. Made in Factory 26 (Jianshe Arsenal). Is this what is referred to as a "Sino-Soviet"? From what I've read (pretty sketchy info) this was made in 1956. Right/wrong? Other posts from my search seemed to indicate that dating the Chinese SKS is problematic. (This recent pickup was sold as C&R, BTW.)

The $40 I spent for "All-matching and Exterior Condition" Hand Select seems to have been worth it. (They also honored my request for No Trench Art.)

I will attempt to take and post "as received" photos in the very near future.

Yingpin · Apr 16, 2014

I ordered one as well and only did the hand select for Matching not cosmetics. I am wondering if I should have added the additional $20? I on the other hand think that the trench art would be an added bonus.

How long did it take you to receive it? I ordered mine last night and I have been researching how to research these rifles.....that's a lot of research!

Let's see what you got

Rumnhammer · Apr 16, 2014

date on sks

On the sks, the manufacturer date, is the first number in the serial number for example 2 would be 1958 or 2 years after 1956 which is the starting point for the Chinese manufacturing. Hence the name type 56. FWIW though, this only applies to the ones made in arsenal 26.

mgbill · Apr 16, 2014

Yingpin said:
I ordered one as well and only did the hand select for Matching not cosmetics. I am wondering if I should have added the additional $20? I on the other hand think that the trench art would be an added bonus.

How long did it take you to receive it? I ordered mine last night and I have been researching how to research these rifles.....that's a lot of research!

Let's see what you got

My order was placed on 8 Apr and item was received on 15 Apr. Suggest you call them and simply ask for a "trench art" stock if available.

mgbill · Apr 16, 2014

Rumnhammer said:
On the sks, the manufacturer date, is the first number in the serial number for example 2 would be 1958 or 2 years after 1956 which is the starting point for the Chinese manufacturing. Hence the name type 56. FWIW though, this only applies to the ones made in arsenal 26.

I got the impression from what I read that the formula you mention did not apply to the rifles with an alphanumeric serial number, as mine is. No?

Hi-Torque · Apr 16, 2014

Yooper John's site states that the Sino-soviets were produced in 1956. After that, they changed to the numerical system that was spoken of previously.

http://www.yooperj.com/SKS-24.htm

Hicap · Apr 16, 2014

1956: 183k Soviet Sino
1957: 197k sig digit /26\
1958: 113k 2m /26\
1959: 215k 3m /26\
1960/61: 360k letter prefix /26\

This is from sksboards. Ghosts are now to be called soviet-sinos. Looks like your letter prefix/26\ is 1960/61 according to this. The # is the amount of each rifle produced( gathered from serial #'s of known rifles I think).

Machodoc · Apr 16, 2014

mgbill said:
Just picked up a Type 56 with serial number F6370. Made in Factory 26 (Jianshe Arsenal). Is this what is referred to as a "Sino-Soviet"?

Yes. Precisely. A Jianshe arsenal with a serial number beginning with a letter, then followed by a four-digit number, is currently believed by most collectors to be a 1956 Sino-Soviet (see photo of example).

Rumnhammer said:
On the sks, the manufacturer date, is the first number in the serial number for example 2 would be 1958 or 2 years after 1956 which is the starting point for the Chinese manufacturing. Hence the name type 56. FWIW though, this only applies to the ones made in arsenal 26.

Only accurate for Jianshe arsenal rifles serial numbered in the millions, and there's even some debate about that. Most people go with what Yooper John states, though.

mgbill said:
I got the impression from what I read that the formula you mention did not apply to the rifles with an alphanumeric serial number, as mine is. No?

That's correct.

Hi-Torque said:
Yooper John's site states that the Sino-soviets were produced in 1956. After that, they changed to the numerical system that was spoken of previously.

http://www.yooperj.com/SKS-24.htm

Also correct.

Mark75H · Apr 16, 2014

Rumnhammer said:
On the sks, the manufacturer date, is the first number in the serial number for example 2 would be 1958 or 2 years after 1956 which is the starting point for the Chinese manufacturing. Hence the name type 56. FWIW though, this only applies to the ones made in arsenal 26.

So is a 6 digit number /26\ with no letters anywhere a 1957?

Machodoc · Apr 16, 2014

Mark75H said:
So is a 6 digit number /26\ with no letters anywhere a 1957?

No. It's believed to be a later 1956 rifle than the ones with a letter prefix. The dating system doesn't work until the serial numbers on the rifles get into the millions. This one would be a 1958, according to what's now generally accepted info.

mgbill · Apr 17, 2014

Machodoc,

Thanks for providing some clarity in this rather confusing subject area - particularly for the newcomer to the SKS arena.

Machodoc · Apr 17, 2014

Hicap said:
1956: 183k Soviet Sino
1957: 197k sig digit /26\
1958: 113k 2m /26\
1959: 215k 3m /26\
1960/61: 360k letter prefix /26\

This is from sksboards. Ghosts are now to be called soviet-sinos. Looks like your letter prefix/26\ is 1960/61 according to this. The # is the amount of each rifle produced( gathered from serial #'s of known rifles I think).

Just to keep this in perspective, the term "ghost" rifle was sort of arbitrarily assigned to certain of the early Chinese SKS rifles that didn't have the Jianshe cartouche on them. For some people on another forum to now decide (also rather arbitrarily) that they "are now to be called soviet-sinos" doesn't make that a correct identification.

It may be, or it may not be.

Once again, some people have come up with some compelling theories and explanations, but we simply don't know if they are correct, or not. We don't have hard evidence. We just have some theories that sound good.**

The same thing holds true with the new decision (by somebody) that the 1957 production rifles were the six-digit Jianshe-marked examples. It fills a void in what we know about these early rifles, and some people are very uncomfortable not having a tidy explanation for things. If an explanation floats past that seems to fit, they are quick to call it a fact.

The fact is that we just don't know. Our faith is rattled because there just don't seem to be any 1-million series serial number guns out there ... but there are some. I've personally only seen one of them, and I've talked with a collector whom I believe to be truthful who claims to have another one.

What's a bit more compelling are the rough estimates of production numbers for these rifles. I believe that this info is extrapolated from data gathered by Howie Bearse, and it's the best that we have, but it's still not certain fact. It's the sort of thing that should be qualified with a statement like, "Based upon serial number data provided by U.S. owners of these rifles, here are some rough projections of production figures that may, or may not be, accurate."

We don't know how big a sampling of data we're working with, for example, or if it's skewed in some way. Most of Howie's data points are from the Chinese SKS rifles imported from Albania in recent years, and we don't know if those were shipped from China to Albania from just one (perhaps of many) storage facilities, and if they only represent a few series of rifles that were made. There could still be a boatload of one-million-series rifles stored somewhere else in China ... or not. We just don't know. The estimated production numbers based upon the data that Howie gathered is still more compelling than the theories that seem to fit neatly, because they are based upon facts (assuming that the info reported to Howie was accurate).

The bottom line is that we don't have hard evidence for very much at all about these early Chinese-made rifles.

[**Theories tend to sound more attractive to people if they make a firearm that they own appear to be more rare or interesting ... or perhaps more valuable. I'm only saying these things to sort out the difference among: what we know about these rifles that are facts; what we don't know about these rifles at all; and, what explanations someone has come up with about these rifles that seems to fit neatly, even though we don't really know that it's factual. ]

brentb636 · Apr 18, 2014

Machodoc said:
Just to keep this in perspective, the term "ghost" rifle was sort of arbitrarily assigned to certain of the early Chinese SKS rifles that didn't have the Jianshe cartouche on them. For some people on another forum to now decide (also rather arbitrarily) that they "are now to be called soviet-sinos" doesn't make that a correct identification.

It may be, or it may not be.

Once again, some people have come up with some compelling theories and explanations, but we simply don't know if they are correct, or not. We don't have hard evidence. We just have some theories that sound good.**

The same thing holds true with the new decision (by somebody) that the 1957 production rifles were the six-digit Jianshe-marked examples. It fills a void in what we know about these early rifles, and some people are very uncomfortable not having a tidy explanation for things. If an explanation floats past that seems to fit, they are quick to call it a fact.

The fact is that we just don't know. Our faith is rattled because there just don't seem to be any 1-million series serial number guns out there ... but there are some. I've personally only seen one of them, and I've talked with a collector whom I believe to be truthful who claims to have another one.

What's a bit more compelling are the rough estimates of production numbers for these rifles. I believe that this info is extrapolated from data gathered by Howie Bearse, and it's the best that we have, but it's still not certain fact. It's the sort of thing that should be qualified with a statement like, "Based upon serial number data provided by U.S. owners of these rifles, here are some rough projections of production figures that may, or may not be, accurate."

We don't know how big a sampling of data we're working with, for example, or if it's skewed in some way. Most of Howie's data points are from the Chinese SKS rifles imported from Albania in recent years, and we don't know if those were shipped from China to Albania from just one (perhaps of many) storage facilities, and if they only represent a few series of rifles that were made. There could still be a boatload of one-million-series rifles stored somewhere else in China ... or not. We just don't know. The estimated production numbers based upon the data that Howie gathered is still more compelling than the theories that seem to fit neatly, because they are based upon facts (assuming that the info reported to Howie was accurate).

The bottom line is that we don't have hard evidence for very much at all about these early Chinese-made rifles.

[**Theories tend to sound more attractive to people if they make a firearm that they own appear to be more rare or interesting ... or perhaps more valuable. I'm only saying these things to sort out the difference among: what we know about these rifles that are facts; what we don't know about these rifles at all; and, what explanations someone has come up with about these rifles that seems to fit neatly, even though we don't really know that it's factual. ]

Arbitrary is right, but They're doing some good work on this over at SKSboards. Looking at the "ghosts", now called Soviet-Sinos over there, and based on the proof stamping of the Ghosts versus the true Russians, they've moved those "ghost Soviet Sinos" into the 1956 slot, and again based on the proof stamps and similarities between the Chinese T53 rifles and the Chinese Letter guns put the Letter guns in the 1960 build range. There's certainly no gospel about it, but an attempt to put these interesting rifles in some sort of order. I've picked up 8 of these I-O imports from various vendors in the last 6 months, and kept 3. 1 each of a '53 Tula Russian, a 6 digit "Ghost Soviet Sino" and a K series letter gun. I agree generally with their current sequencing scheme, but as we all know, there are no perfect transitions from one thing to the next. It's kind of gradual, the changing of the features. Educated guessing is what we have here.

Prepare to change your mind.
Brent

Machodoc · Apr 18, 2014

brentb636 said:
Arbitrary is right, but They're doing some good work on this over at SKSboards. Looking at the "ghosts", now called Soviet-Sinos over there, and based on the proof stamping of the Ghosts versus the true Russians, they've moved those "ghost Soviet Sinos" into the 1956 slot, and again based on the proof stamps and similarities between the Chinese T53 rifles and the Chinese Letter guns put the Letter guns in the 1960 build range. There's certainly no gospel about it, but an attempt to put these interesting rifles in some sort of order. I've picked up 8 of these I-O imports from various vendors in the last 6 months, and kept 3. 1 each of a '53 Tula Russian, a 6 digit "Ghost Soviet Sino" and a K series letter gun. I agree generally with their current sequencing scheme, but as we all know, there are no perfect transitions from one thing to the next. It's kind of gradual, the changing of the features. Educated guessing is what we have here. Prepare to change your mind.
Brent

Brent - I'm always prepared to change my mind about such things. In fact, my mind isn't ever made up until I see proof. I haven't looked at that thread in a few weeks, but it sounds like I should. The last time that I did, though, there were people trying to extrapolate facts from beliefs about markings on T-53 rifles. From what you are saying, they are still doing more of that, but giving it even more credence.

So, you say that they've now decided over there that the guns with the letter prefix and four-digit serial numbers are from the '60s? That's a real stretch, since the very few examples of those riles that came into the U.S. in the pre-ban days (weren't sent to Albania first) generally have stocks made of Russian Artic Birch and have other very clear Russian features. Why would the Chinese have waited until the '60s, then suddenly pulled out those parts?

Also, the letter guns tend to have a side-mounted rear stock swivel, such as those favored by the cavalry in Asian countries up to that point (the stock hung flat on the soldier's back). I believe that the earlier rifles were intended for the Chinese cavalry. The cavalry was still an elite force in China in the 1950s, but it was starting to lose its attractiveness with the mechanization that took place in the '60s and later.

It's like doing a jigsaw puzzle. Sometimes you'll find a piece that has the right colors and shape to go into an empty space, but when you try it out, it doesn't *quite* fit.

Maybe someday we'll know the facts on these, but the speculation that the letter guns aren't among the earliest made is pretty hard for me to swallow.

why2kmax · Apr 18, 2014

Unless Comrade Nikita found a bunch of SKS parts in 60 and then shipped them to Mao, I dont see how or why the Chinese would make numbered guns and then 4 yrs later switch to Russian letter guns and then switch back to the former numbering. That just doesnt make a lot of sense. I havent been over to those threads in a while but the lowest # ive seen WITH the factory 26 stamp was 3XX,XXX.

Seems to make more sense that the Chinese did Russian Letter guns with surplus parts, then 6 digit ghosts, then 6 digit with 26 stamp, then the million man numbering system started for the year.

Machodoc · Apr 18, 2014

Not sure why they'd make this model four years into production. The first photos are of an essentially new Sino-Soviet SKS "letter gun". The last photo is an essentially new (unfired) 1951 Russian SKS, for comparison. Did they decide in 1960 to go back and make a "retro model" for the nostalgic Red Chinese? :innocent0

(BTW ... by 1960, the Chinese were again back to not being friendly with the Russians.)

Hi-Torque · Apr 19, 2014

why2kmax said:
I havent been over to those threads in a while but the lowest # ive seen WITH the factory 26 stamp was 3XX,XXX.

One of the sales images Classic has on their website has a 234,xxx number and a /26\.

Mark75H · Apr 19, 2014

Hi-Torque said:
One of the sales images Classic has on their website has a 234,xxx number and a /26\.

I have one just like it with serial number 244,xxx /26\ Numbers matching (including a number stamped on the stock) ... except for the bolt carrier; it starts with an F

Alphabrew · Apr 19, 2014

Hi-Torque said:
One of the sales images Classic has on their website has a 234,xxx number and a /26\.

That's extremely interesting. Prolly one of the first guns with the /26\. I'd kill for that one.

Machodoc · Apr 19, 2014

why2kmax said:
I havent been over to those threads in a while but the lowest # ive seen WITH the factory 26 stamp was 3XX,XXX.

Hi-Torque said:
One of the sales images Classic has on their website has a 234,xxx number and a /26\.

Mark75H said:
I have one just like it with serial number 244,xxx /26\ Numbers matching (including a number stamped on the stock) ... except for the bolt carrier; it starts with an F

Alphabrew said:
That's extremely interesting. Prolly one of the first guns with the /26\. I'd kill for that one.

I'll have to dig into my deep-storage safe to verify and to take photos, but my bound book has SKSs with these two numbers. I'm pretty sure that both have the Jianshe arsenal stamp, and I know they are both still in full cosmoline.

263945
231049

[Edit: Just checked my inventory photos and they were clear enough to see the Jianshe Arsenal cartouches on both of these. Do I win a prize? I'm pretty sure that these are all matching, or at least mostly matching. I'll have to dig them out. These were part of the first batch that came out of Albania.]

SKS Type 56 date of manufacture

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