OC vs CC in Maryland

While clicked on cc, I am still open to open carry. I think if there enough folks doing it, it would not be an attention drawer. Also if you open carried criminals would know not to mess with you. cc is a crap shoot. I think folks in favor of cc, which I would like the option, would rather cc so they could have confrontation and the element of surprize maybe.

Unknown User said:

The fingerprint and background issue would have already been taken care of via the HQL process. maybe shorten the renewal time from 10 years to every year and anyone who chooses to OC MUSt take a basic or advanced self defense and mandatory gun safety course with a certified instructor twice per year (every 6 months), the certification number can be electronically linked to your HQL via MSP..........

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When did Brian Frosh join this forum?

Raineman said:

When did Brian Frosh join this forum?

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^^^this

Twice yearly training and annual renewal?

A lot of time being spent in this thread in what is likely a "troll poll". I decline to answer. That is all.

Unknown User said:

The fingerprint and background issue would have already been taken care of via the HQL process. maybe shorten the renewal time from 10 years to every year and anyone who chooses to OC MUSt take a basic or advanced self defense and mandatory gun safety course with a certified instructor twice per year (every 6 months), the certification number can be electronically linked to your HQL via MSP..........

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In my long post, I described how things like the background checks, application process, and restrictions on manner/location/ability to carry are all infringements on an inalienable right. That on it's face is enough to oppose the measures you are suggesting....but let's look at your proposal through a civil rights and socioeconomic bias for a moment....

Here's a list of rough costs associated with getting a handgun for a new shooter...
1) Mandatory training course- $100
2) Fingerprints- $50
3) HQL application- $50
4) md approved integral gun lock- 20$
5) md background check fee- 10$


....so at this point, someone interested in exercising their 2A rights in order to defend themselves(or just get a gun for hunting, sport, or just to collect them) is forced by the state to spend $230 purely on state mandates. They haven't spent a dime on the gun itself yet. It means now that quality $600 glock or smith and wesson m&p is likely out of their price range and they will have to buy a cheaper, less reliable, and less safe gun. It's also $230 that could have been spent on quality non-state mandated training, or practice ammunition to better hone their skill(so they're less likely to miss a threat and injure someone downrange).

This is also purely to obtain a handgun for home defense. If they want to carry it with a carry permit, they've got to add a couple hundred more dollars to the bill of mandatory expenses for the application process, and more training. Keep in mind this isn't only financially prohibitive, but also time and travel prohibitive.

With that $500+ pricetag purely in government fees before spending another $500 on a decent low-end pistol...you're looking at spending ~$1,000 if you're interested in defending your life...just as a startup cost....and you're suggesting making it even MORE cost prohibitive by requiring more frequent government-mandated fees.

Ok, so lets take a look at who has the highest interest in defending their life with a gun. Poor, largely black neighborhoods where violent crimes are disproportionately high. You'll also notice that in these neighborhoods of disadvantage, people don't have a lot of money to spend to legally obtain a HQL and a carry permit. They are struggling just having money to pay the rent and put food on the table for their children. Meanwhile, in more affluent neighborhoods, crime isn't as high. So these laws place a disproportionate burden on the very people that MOST need the ability to LEGALLY defend themselves.

Imagine again if we placed cost, travel, and time prohibitions on another right like the right to vote. I know for a fact that democrats vehemently oppose requiring an ID to vote, because they claim it is prohibitive and harkens back to jim-crow voter suppression(BTW, modern gun control has its origins in jim-crow laws trying to keep newly freed slaves from being able to defend themselves against things like lynchings by southern democrats at the time).

"But smokey! Are you saying people SHOULDN'T get training to properly and safely use a potentially deadly weapon?"

Absolutely not. Every responsible gun owner values training in both safe handling practices and skill. I personally seek out training whenever possible to be more proficient in not only the skill-related side of shooting, but in the legal aspects of self-defense. I do have a HUGE problem with a government mandate for training that is prohibitive to exercising a right though.

Keep in mind, just as there are laws currently in place to give a consequence to someone that inadvertently harms someone with any other tool (if you're cutting down trees and drop one on your neighbor's car, your neighbor has legal recourse against you), there are laws currently in place to handle a situation where an untrained person illegally harms someone else. Therefore, it is in every gun owner's self-interest to seek out training when they can to keep from facing these consequences should something bad happen.

boundlessdyad said:

A lot of time being spent in this thread in what is likely a "troll poll". I decline to answer. That is all.

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When you're up throughout the night every couple hours, turning your mind off and cranking out a long post can be pretty cathartic.

Unknown User said:

Just wondering if a bill was passed that allowed regular citizens to OC firearms (handguns only) and only allow undercover, private detectives, retired and active law enforcement personnel the option to CC how many of you would be okay with that and why or why not?

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The second part already exists. As for the first, there will be no open carry in MD like you see in VA. The MD GA will never pass a Constitutional carry style bill. I am ok with that. That being said, if we ever get a bill passed for shall issue or self defense as a justifiable cause etc, then we should be able to carry openly or concealed. Our choice.

The question is structured in an unrealistic manner.

smokey0118 said:

When you're up throughout the night every couple hours, turning your mind off and cranking out a long post can be pretty cathartic.

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I hear you and your post is excellent. My concern is the time being spent on a likely anti/troll.

boundlessdyad said:

I hear you and your post is excellent. My concern is the time being spent on a likely anti/troll.

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Valid point. However, there is nothing to stop non members from trolling and seeing what we are discussing, maybe there should be? Or would that discourage membership? Also nothing to prevent an anti from signing up. Should folks be vetted before they are allowed to sign up to insure we are not allowing players from the other team to sign in and post?

Something to think about, maybe?

I prefer CC. Why let bad guys know you have the ability to DESTROY them. Let that be a surprise if they attack.

boundlessdyad said:

I hear you and your post is excellent. My concern is the time being spent on a likely anti/troll.

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This thread from someone so new does pop some red flags for sure. In the past they''ve appeared from everyone from the press, to MGA members, to antigun workers on national campaigns. It'd b interesting to see where the ip resolves to. Of course if it is one of the more organized forms of troll instead of a curious individual, it's nice to occasionally send a message that's hard to refute. Plus occasionally putting some of these arguments out there for our members to read may better prepare them for the upcoming testimonies this legislative session. You've got a valid point though.

I never understand the resistance to requiring training for carrying. All The constitutional scholars here will jump on the " why do I need a class to execute my constitutional rights" narrative, but you just sound like extremists and add to the anti's claims that we are all gun nuts. Why would better trained people with guns be a bad thing? I think everyone not a felon or with serious mental health issues should be capable of concealed carry if the choose ( I also think Open carry is just plain stupid), but I also believe they should be given the proper training to do so safely and within the laws. If it's too much of a hassle for them to get the training then that's their choice.

I'll add this. That while I am with you guys on the OP being new to the board, and possibly being an anti trying to come up with some poll results for his/her position, if the OP is indeed an anti those are the people we need to talk to and inform. Talking to other pro 2nd Amendment supporters is preaching to the choir. We don't need to show them the light, they have already seen it. Now, if they are not active in the "fight", then that is a different thing.

JVP409 said:

I never understand the resistance to requiring training for carrying. All The constitutional scholars here will jump on the " why do I need a class to execute my constitutional rights" narrative, but you just sound like extremists and add to the anti's claims that we are all gun nuts. Why would better trained people with guns be a bad thing? I think everyone not a felon or with serious mental health issues should be capable of concealed carry if the choose ( I also think Open carry is just plain stupid), but I also believe they should be given the proper training to do so safely and within the laws. If it's too much of a hassle for them to get the training then that's their choice.

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It is because training costs money. Just like the HQL costs money, the fingerprinting for the HQL background check costs money, etc. Not only that, but they cost time. The handgun roster is in place to make sure that no cheap guns are available. Now, tell all that to a single mother of 3 that uses public transportation (because she cannot afford a car) while living in crapola Baltimore, that fears for her safety and the safety of her children, that she needs to cough up all this additional cash, find transportation out to where there is a range, etc., and see how it becomes insurmountable for her. Meanwhile, for me it is all a hop, skip, and a jump, versus it feeling like climbing Mount Everest for the single mother in my example.

Raineman said:

When did Brian Frosh join this forum?

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Interesting; a new member joins, starts a poorly-developed poll over a question that has been discussed to death......next will be 'how many guns do you own?" and 'how much ammo do you have?".......

JVP409 said:

I never understand the resistance to requiring training for carrying. All The constitutional scholars here will jump on the " why do I need a class to execute my constitutional rights" narrative, but you just sound like extremists and add to the anti's claims that we are all gun nuts. Why would better trained people with guns be a bad thing? I think everyone not a felon or with serious mental health issues should be capable of concealed carry if the choose ( I also think Open carry is just plain stupid), but I also believe they should be given the proper training to do so safely and within the laws. If it's too much of a hassle for them to get the training then that's their choice.

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I would submit that more damage has been done to this country by poorly informed voters than poorly trained legal gun owners. Why would better trained people voting be a bad thing?

I think every citizen not a felon or with serious mental health issues should be capable of voting if they choose without paying for voter registration cards or paying for classes in history, government, civics, or meeting minimum grades. Oh we already have that, so teach firearm training classes in public school to all students then give them an Firearm ID card like a voter ID, with the same availability like motor voter etc., that they can then choose to use or not.

I'm definitely far from a anti and I'm definitely not a trool. I'm new to the forum and fairly new to guns. I stumbled upon those site while I was looking for a online gun dealer and became a registered user after I gained some knowledge about guns and to be honest I never knew about our 2A rights until I found this site and now that I'm actually doing some research and learning more about my rights as a new/ first time gun owner I'm Maryland shall issue and seeing what's going on in D.C. I'm thinking things will change here really soon.


Only reason I posted a poll was because I wanted to see who would be for oc If it came down to that as our only option because with the government they don't do things unless someone is making a profit off it and the state could make a billions if they would allow some "flexibility"
with a small fee attached to it, we would be able to carry and the state makes money, I think it's a win win situation.
The demand for instructors will be high thus generating more state Jobs that will ultimately help the state make more money.maryland will also be the first state that has mandatory training twice per year putting us ahead of the pack in a sense.

I believe that having "quarterly" advanced or basic training for Everyone that owns a firearm is the way to go.

I realize I need to be more educated on this topic but if we all could "brainstorm" and come up with a bill that we can all propose to our representatives
with the proper language might make a huge difference, it's just an idea I dunno.....

Man it would be like the old west, got my stetson on, my boots dusty and Clint Eastwood's famous chime ringing everywhere!......No can't see that happening but man we would be cool!

Blacksmith101 said:

I would submit that more damage has been done to this country by poorly informed voters than poorly trained legal gun owners. Why would better trained people voting be a bad thing?

I think every citizen not a felon or with serious mental health issues should be capable of voting if they choose without paying for voter registration cards or paying for classes in history, government, civics, or meeting minimum grades. Oh we already have that, so teach firearm training classes in public school to all students then give them an Firearm ID card like a voter ID, with the same availability like motor voter etc., that they can then choose to use or not.

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I agree that poorly informed voters do more damage but it doesn't make my point less valid. As for training in schools. You are opposed to training for those that want to exercise their right and carry in public, but would mandate it to all even those who are fundamentally opposed? And go ahead and propose a national firearms ID card and watch this board go into meltdown. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just sharing my opinion.

JVP409 said:

I agree that poorly informed voters do more damage but it doesn't make my point less valid. As for training in schools. You are opposed to training for those that want to exercise their right and carry in public, but would mandate it to all even those who are fundamentally opposed? And go ahead and propose a national firearms ID card and watch this board go into meltdown. I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, just sharing my opinion.

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You know what, in keeping with what Blacksmith said, I am all for training as long as it is done at the grade school level and it is mandatory. Kind of like mandatory education for children like we currently have. If I am not mistaken, children are required to go to school and learn about the Constitution, the history of the US, etc. I think money and banking should be a mandatory semester in 11th grade followed by economic the second semester in 11th grade. Then, driver's education in 11th grade for a semester and bows, crossbows, muzzleloaders, shotguns, rifles, handguns, reloading, and ballistics as another semester class. These last two we can substitute in lieu of Physical Education. We need to give kids the knowledge they need to be independent. The number of people out there that have no clue how to manage money is frightening. The number of people out there that don't even have a clue how to load a firearm is frightening.

Should include a tire changing class too, or make that one of the subjects on the driver's ed test.

Pass your bows, crossbows, muzzleloaders, shotungs, rifles, handguns, reloading, and ballistics class with a C or better, you are qualified for a CCW and the HQL. Oh yeah, throw some hunters ed in there too and allow them to get their hunter's education certificate too.