Ishapore 2A1

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  • rifelman

    Active Member
    Aug 7, 2008
    615
    Calvert County
    So, if I remember and understand correctly, no mags over 10 rounds transferred/sold etc in Maryland. No semi auto rifle/pistol with a fixed mag of over 10 rounds. Why would a bolt action Lee Enfield be a problem? Just no go on the 12 round mag transferred inside the state.
     

    j8064

    Garrett Co Hooligan #1
    Feb 23, 2008
    11,635
    Deep Creek
    Yeah but I think it's illegal to buy a firearm out of state when a >10 round capacity magazine is transferred with the firearm cause it turns it into a regulated firearm and you cant get around that part of the law out of state. But it's not illegal to buy the magazine by itself out of state. That's my understanding of the law.

    No.

    There is a "regulated firearm" and there a "detachable magazine" holding more than 10 rounds. They are two separate, unrelated things.

    It is perfectly legal, for example, for an 03 FFL from MD to buy a CZ82 (with a 12 round magazine) in PA. It is perfectly legal for any MD resident to buy a rifle from a PA FFL that has a 875 round magazine. What the law prohibits is the sale or receipt, in MD, of a "detachable magazine" that holds more than 10 rounds.

    Abulg is correct. For example:

    As a MD resident, you can purchase a MD "non-banned (and non- C&R)" long gun in an adjacent state to MD (with the proper paperwork done with an FFL in that state of course) and return to MD with both the rifle and the standard mags that feed it. A VZ2008 recently purchased in PA fits that definition.

    That transaction is not very different than an FFL03 acquiring a C&R eligible item across a MD border and bringing the item home (mags included) - as long as the firearm itself is not banned in MD.

    Stupid? Yes. Legal? Yes.
     
    That's not the law.

    If the magazine can be readily removed without the use of a tool, it's a detachable magazine. The law was poorly thought through and, in my opinion, made intentionally broad.

    As a side note, I and another lawyer are working with a legislator to add an exception to the prohibition for magazines designed for use in an "antique firearm". To date, the only antique firearm with a "detachable magazine" holding more than 10 rounds that I have been able to identify is a Swiss Model 1889. I note that the Swiss did not intend for the magazine to be used as a detachable magazine in the sense that we normally think about. They made it removable so that it could be cleaned. It is, nevertheless, a "detachable magazine" under our stupid law. If anyone can identify any other antique firearm with a 10+ round mag, let me know.

    That's Annapolis for you. Anti-gun ALL the way.
     

    j8064

    Garrett Co Hooligan #1
    Feb 23, 2008
    11,635
    Deep Creek
    So, if I remember and understand correctly, no mags over 10 rounds transferred/sold etc in Maryland. No semi auto rifle/pistol with a fixed mag of over 10 rounds. Why would a bolt action Lee Enfield be a problem? Just no go on the 12 round mag transferred inside the state.

    You answered your own question....

    It's not the firearm. It's the capacity of the "technically detachable" magazine that comes into the mix.

    :banghead:
     

    Abulg1972

    Ultimate Member
    People are getting caught up in handguns with this and that magazine, and semi-auto this and that.

    There are two separate issues to worry about.

    First, there is buying/owning a "regulated firearm" regardless of what kind of magazine it has.

    Second, there is buying/owning a "detachable magazine" that holds more than 10 rounds.

    You cannot buy a "regulated firearm, in Maryland or in Tahiti, unless you comply with MD law.

    You cannot buy a "detachable magazine" holding more than 10 rounds IN Maryland. You can, however, buy a detachable magazine holding 1 bajillion rounds in PA and bring it to your house in MD.

    You can buy a heavy barrel AR15 in MD and then go to PA and buy a 75 round magazine and bring it home. All legal.
     

    Sirex

    Powered by natural gas
    Oct 30, 2010
    10,380
    Westminster, MD
    So, I have a SKS with a FIXED 20 round magazine that was installed prior to the Oct 2013 laws. Being it is a fixed magazine, requiring a tool to remove part of the weapon (trigger group) to remove or install the magazine, am I ok or should I file 13 the mag?
     

    Abulg1972

    Ultimate Member
    So, I have a SKS with a FIXED 20 round magazine that was installed prior to the Oct 2013 laws. Being it is a fixed magazine, requiring a tool to remove part of the weapon (trigger group) to remove or install the magazine, am I ok or should I file 13 the mag?


    I can't tell whether you're being serious or just trying to stir the crap pot and further confuse people.

    We are talking about detachable magazines with a capacity of more than 10 rounds. If your SKS has a fixed magazine that can't be removed without a tool, then ...
     

    Clovis

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 1, 2011
    1,408
    Centreville
    Thanks for pointing all this out folks.
    I own two 2A1's, one mag will hold eleven and the other will hold 12. I thought years ago when I bought them they would hold only ten. Put it off as manufacturing issues in India.
    The real problem as I see it in Maryland is a current owner who does not fully understand the issue trying and perhaps succeeding in selling his 2A1 to another unaware citizen in our great state and some anti-gunner finding out about it.:mad54:
    What a mess!
     

    asdaven

    Active Member
    Oct 30, 2013
    272
    Maryland
    Alot of dealers out of state won't sell rifles to Maryland residents with any magazines larger than 10 rounds in the transaction. I assumed this was the law. But, its probably because they are paranoid about getting in trouble over a law that is difficult to understand. It's probably transferring a magazine >10 rounds with a rifle has a paperwork trail, while buying the large capacity magazines by themselves dosent really other than the monetary transaction. I ve been told by many dealers they'll sell me a 30 round magazine seperately no problem, but don't want to risk it transferring one with a rifle I'm purchasing. Myself, even if not technically illegal, I'd rather just do it that way to be well within the law.

    I might look for a WWII Lithgow No.1 Mk.III* now instead. I have a No.4 Mk.1 and No.5 Jungle Carbine. Don't have a No.1 Mk.III style Lee Enfield. I thought about the Ishapore cause it would be different being .308/7.62 Nato.....but theres the magazine capacity issue and those Lithgow Enfields seem awfully nice fit and finish wise compared to the Ishapore Enfields.
     

    303_enfield

    Ultimate Member
    May 30, 2007
    4,647
    DelMarVa
    On the Ishapore Rifle 2A/2A1, it's a ten round magazine. Well, that's how Skinnerton, Majors and Edwards have them listed in the books. It's also how the Indians made them. The rifles are made to be loaded from two five round chargers (strippers for us Americans). Yes, more then ten rounds could fit in some magazines but that is just quality control. Or is the quality control on the POF ammo? As the cases I've had are always out of SAMMI spec (ie: fat!).
     

    Abulg1972

    Ultimate Member
    Alot of dealers out of state won't sell rifles to Maryland residents with any magazines larger than 10 rounds in the transaction. I assumed this was the law. But, its probably because they are paranoid about getting in trouble over a law that is difficult to understand. It's probably transferring a magazine >10 rounds with a rifle has a paperwork trail, while buying the large capacity magazines by themselves dosent really other than the monetary transaction. I ve been told by many dealers they'll sell me a 30 round magazine seperately no problem, but don't want to risk it transferring one with a rifle I'm purchasing. Myself, even if not technically illegal, I'd rather just do it that way to be well within the law.

    I might look for a WWII Lithgow No.1 Mk.III* now instead. I have a No.4 Mk.1 and No.5 Jungle Carbine. Don't have a No.1 Mk.III style Lee Enfield. I thought about the Ishapore cause it would be different being .308/7.62 Nato.....but theres the magazine capacity issue and those Lithgow Enfields seem awfully nice fit and finish wise compared to the Ishapore Enfields.

    There's a mix of people out there. There are some people who just say "screw it, it's too complicated and I'm not taking the time to learn, so I'm not selling anything to MD". Then, there are people, like SOG, who will ship the firearm but not the magazine, either because it's too much hassle or they incorrectly believe that our law prohibits a Maryland resident from owning or receiving out of state a 10+ round magazine. Then, there are people who will ship the magazine separately. When I bought my Swiss Model 1889, the auction house called me and said, "I can't ship this 12-round magazine to you and my checklist says that's a no-go to Maryland. Where would you like me to send it?"
     

    Sirex

    Powered by natural gas
    Oct 30, 2010
    10,380
    Westminster, MD
    No, I was 100%serious. I have posted pics before on here and FB pages and got some comments regarding the fixed 20 round mag. Just wanting to be sure. As I understood, being a fixed mag, it should be legal. Only have the one and it's in there.


    I can't tell whether you're being serious or just trying to stir the crap pot and further confuse people.

    We are talking about detachable magazines with a capacity of more than 10 rounds. If your SKS has a fixed magazine that can't be removed without a tool, then ...
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    No, I was 100%serious. I have posted pics before on here and FB pages and got some comments regarding the fixed 20 round mag. Just wanting to be sure. As I understood, being a fixed mag, it should be legal. Only have the one and it's in there.
    Semi-auto centerfire rifles with fixed mags > 10rds are now banned. If the magazine was installed in your SKS before the 10/1/13 cutoff, you are still allowed to legally posses it due to the grandfathering clause (as it was a copycat weapon before the ban due to the installation of that ).
     

    Abulg1972

    Ultimate Member
    Semi-auto centerfire rifles with fixed mags > 10rds are now banned. If the magazine was installed in your SKS before the 10/1/13 cutoff, you are still allowed to legally posses it due to the grandfathering clause (as it was a copycat weapon before the ban due to the installation of that ).

    Section 4-303(a)(2) of the Criminal Law Article prohibits a person from possessing an "assault weapon". Section 4-301(d) defines "assault weapon" as an "assault long gun", an "assault pistol" or a "copycat weapon". The term "assault long gun" is defined as any assault weapon listed in Section 5-101(r)(2) of the Public Safety Article, but that paragraph does not mention an SKS, or any other centefire rifle, with a fixed magazine. The term "copycat weapon", however, includes, among other things, "a semiautomatic centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds." So, it does appear that an SKS with a fixed 20-round magazine is a "copycat weapon" the ownership of which is prohibited. The law excludes the possession of a copycat weapon that was lawfully possessed (or for which an application had been submitted or approved) before October 1, 2013.
     

    erwos

    The Hebrew Hammer
    MDS Supporter
    Mar 25, 2009
    13,866
    Rockville, MD
    Section 4-303(a)(2) of the Criminal Law Article prohibits a person from possessing an "assault weapon". Section 4-301(d) defines "assault weapon" as an "assault long gun", an "assault pistol" or a "copycat weapon". The term "assault long gun" is defined as any assault weapon listed in Section 5-101(r)(2) of the Public Safety Article, but that paragraph does not mention an SKS, or any other centefire rifle, with a fixed magazine. The term "copycat weapon", however, includes, among other things, "a semiautomatic centerfire rifle that has a fixed magazine with the capacity to accept more than 10 rounds." So, it does appear that an SKS with a fixed 20-round magazine is a "copycat weapon" the ownership of which is prohibited. The law excludes the possession of a copycat weapon that was lawfully possessed (or for which an application had been submitted or approved) before October 1, 2013.
    This seems like a very long-winded way of saying you agree with me?

    Personally, I have an SKS-M that takes AK mags, which is double-plus for sure banned. :)
     

    Abulg1972

    Ultimate Member
    This seems like a very long-winded way of saying you agree with me?



    Personally, I have an SKS-M that takes AK mags, which is double-plus for sure banned. :)


    Yes, I agree. I was just providing the legal background.

    The other point I was trying to show is that we're dealing with two separate issues in this thread with the introduction of Sirex's question: (1) a prohibited detachable magazine; and (2) a prohibited assault weapon. A lot of traps for the unwary.
     

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