Shooting with Night Vision? NGVs or NV scope? IR lasers?

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  • Bolts Rock

    Living in Free America!
    Apr 8, 2012
    6,123
    Northern Alabama
    Was checking out the civilian legal Class 1 IR lasers and saw this one.

    https://tnvc.com/shop/ldi-cqbl-1-class1-ir-laser/

    Steiner is a reputable company and I like the compactness on this.

    They go on and on about it being good for SBRs, but is there anything that makes it unsuitable for a typical M4gery?

    Looks a bit clunky and unless running no irons must be mounted at 3 or 9 o'clock.

    This is the one I just got as it has an IR illuminator as well

    http://tnvc.com/shop/ldi-dbal-d2-class-1-ir-laser/

    Better as it can mount at 12 o'clock behind a front iron. Also has an awesome illuminator. You should note it is too powerful for close range and indoor use.

    I have https://tnvc.com/shop/l3-insight-atpial-c-class1-ir-laser/ which is similar to the DBAL. I have not had a chance to test it at night yet.

    I'm running PVS-14s with 11769 OMNI VII tube and 10160A (unknown OMNI, could be IV through VII) tube. 11769 is Pinnacle, autogated with gain control type tube, great all around tube, would not use on anything bigger than 5.56mm with 62gr bullets (per TNVC and several other sources). 10160A is Pinnacle, autogated, non-gain control, aviation type tube, great observation tube (I'm willing to experiment with this specific tube on 7.62mm using ball). Per TNVC and others halo is a predictor of recoil tolerance and my 10160A has big halo.

    I chose a Team Wendy Exfil bump helmet to mount them, very comfortable but needs a counterweight. For rifle mounting NVG goes behind unmagnified sights and in front of magnified sights. You can use Aimpoints and NV capable EoTechs with a helmet mounted monocular...you can also shoot trap with a helmet mount. There are many weapons mounts available so pick what's in your budget. For mounting in front you can get a scope adapter or rail mount but you'll want some kind of light shield for the latter.

    Random notes and caveats:
    If you wear glasses skullcrushers suck.
    If you wear glasses the shuttered eyecup for weapons mounting does not work well.
    If you wear glasses the regular eyecup works for both helmet and weapons mount but if stealth is needed you'll need a face veil to block light bleed from the NVG.
    IR laser illuminators, even class 1R are insanely powerful (think IR spotlight good to about 250 yards).
    If you are even remotely clumsy, absent minded or nervous think really, really hard before playing with even class 1R IR aiming lasers.
    If more than one of you is playing with lasers of any kind, get LIFs for your NVGs.
    Lasers and illuminators work both ways just like tracers only more so because anyone with NV can see you as the source while they're on.
    Buy once, cry once applies doubly with NVG.
    Later OMNI Gen 3 is no shit super powers cool!
     

    Jaybeez

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Patriot Picket
    May 30, 2006
    6,392
    Darlington MD

    take a look at the tnvc or optics planet offerings of pvs14s, if you are looking for brand new with a warranty and bang for your buck.

    for example, tnvc's itt and l3 14's are on sale for 2800 and 2900.
    https://tnvc.com/shop/category/yard-sale/

    otal class 1 is $529
    https://tnvc.com/shop/ldi-otal-class-1-ir-laser/

    and you really dont want an ACH, in stock form they are heavy and cumbersome, nothing special as a platform, and there are much better choices out there for the $700 you'd save by not buying the kit you linked too.
     

    IMBLITZVT

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 20, 2009
    3,799
    Catonsville, MD
    ...
    In 5-10 years they will be down to a few hundred bucks...


    ...No. They won't. Actually, price has gone up (albeit just a little, but it's still the opposite of down) the last couple years. That said, a good thermal unit doesn't cost 10 grand. ...

    ...I have yet to see any technology that does not get cheaper as time goes on. .... I don't see anything in them that will keep the value up as demand falls and technology improves. If I am missing something please explain why it will not follow the NV example?

    .....unless someone comes out with a *MAJOR* breakthrough technologically in the next year or two, don't expect prices to drop nearly as much as NV has, if at all.

    the D760 series of gen 3 NV scopes have only come down about 2%-3% or thereabouts the last 3 years. That's not much of a decrease. Most NV has gone up lately, because gen 3 has been the top of the heap. The way NV works, there likely won't be much innovation on the consumer market for a long time to come, so stuff will likely just increase from here on out with inflation.

    Great, one time I get to tell someone "I TOLD YOU SO" and you banned him! Just my luck!

    Here is some Thermal Scopes for as low as $575!!!
    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/9...-mini-thermal-imager-1x-picatinny-mount-matte

    969457.jpg


    So I told you so even if you are not around to hear it!!!!!!!!!!

    I got to check them out at the SAR Show and they are pretty awesome! I might have to get one. The 9hz is to slow but the 30hz is very awesome!
     

    Jaybeez

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Patriot Picket
    May 30, 2006
    6,392
    Darlington MD
    Great, one time I get to tell someone "I TOLD YOU SO" and you banned him! Just my luck!

    Here is some Thermal Scopes for as low as $575!!!
    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/9...-mini-thermal-imager-1x-picatinny-mount-matte

    969457.jpg


    So I told you so even if you are not around to hear it!!!!!!!!!!

    I got to check them out at the SAR Show and they are pretty awesome! I might have to get one. The 9hz is to slow but the 30hz is very awesome!

    I wouldn't use that for shooting indoors at a range at a known target in broad daylight.

    its no more than a seek thermal ($199) with a pic rail and a tiny display. the dog in the picture? less than 10' away. at 50' it would be a tiny round blob. It's nothing more than a proof of concept, and even though its for sale, its not ready for prime time. and that's not even asking why anyone would want a lcd illuminating their face in the dark.
     

    smdub

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 14, 2012
    4,643
    MoCo
    I wouldn't use that for shooting indoors at a range at a known target in broad daylight.
    ^This. Its a 80 x 60 res microbolometer array. It would take exactly 16 of those to equal the 10yr old FLIR unit I have at work. Like comparing a yugo to a Buggati. (FWIW, The price per pixel is about 2x a higher res unit = not a step in the right direction...)
     

    IMBLITZVT

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 20, 2009
    3,799
    Catonsville, MD
    I wouldn't use that for shooting indoors at a range at a known target in broad daylight.

    its no more than a seek thermal ($199) with a pic rail and a tiny display. the dog in the picture? less than 10' away. at 50' it would be a tiny round blob. It's nothing more than a proof of concept, and even though its for sale, its not ready for prime time. and that's not even asking why anyone would want a lcd illuminating their face in the dark.

    ^This. Its a 80 x 60 res microbolometer array. It would take exactly 16 of those to equal the 10yr old FLIR unit I have at work. Like comparing a yugo to a Buggati. (FWIW, The price per pixel is about 2x a higher res unit = not a step in the right direction...)

    Come on guys, its pretty cool! I used one at the SAR Show. I think the T12-W version with the 12.5 degree FOV. I could see people at a pretty good range. I would say up to 100 yards away without real issue. Of course there were so many they were hard to tell apart. At this range you could see heads and legs and them walking. I will grant the LCD illuminating their face but you can have the same issue with most NV...

    Yes but your 10 year old FLIR is still like $5K! This is a lot cheaper.

    Issues, sure but its pretty cool. I kind of think of it like a fast fire type red dot. Added to a pistol or as a secondary on top of an ACOG or.... it would be awesome to add to a NV setup.

    As far as the comparison to the seek, sure but how do you add that to a gun?

    I don't know guys its really pretty cool! I might wait for the price to come down a bit but I see myself getting one down the road.
     

    TheGunnyRet

    Ultimate Member
    Mar 27, 2014
    2,234
    Falling Waters, WV
    You have to types of Thermal Imaging Passive and Active...

    Most of your civilian stuff is Gen 1 and some Gen 2... and your NVGs are Passive which is Light absorbing." Cat Eyes" Which utilizes and Image Tube...PVS 5s, 7s, 14s, TVS 5s (Old). It a Capacitive Reaction on the Image tube...

    Active is frequency related and is more sophisticated for detection...but it is very clear and can see at distance. An/PAS 13s, FLIR, these systems use IR frequency detection...so your image is very distinctive...utilizing reflection ( Mirror spinning at 30Hz) and frequency absorption on Dewar Assembly at -70 Degrees kelvin...is best I can explain it with going into theory...

    Gen III active is still in its infancy where they it can detect shadow thermal and residual heat and limited penetration...

    To see what your shooting at night, there are those things called Tracers that are used for night fire...

    IR laser is to give you the ability to see what your shooting at when using NVGs...

    These are really nice its basically a Digital NVGs

    http://www.atncorp.com/smart-hd-weapon-sight
     

    smdub

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 14, 2012
    4,643
    MoCo
    Come on guys, its pretty cool!
    ...
    Yes but your 10 year old FLIR is still like $5K! This is a lot cheaper.
    Yes its cool but limited use. Our FLIR is 320x240 (QVGA) and is really the bare MINIMUM I think anyone would find useful. I've taken it home on multiple occasions and had fun with it. Anything less is just using image processing algorithms to make stuff look sharper, the the real data isn't actually there. I just looked up our camera in our PO list. Bought for $14,500 on 24.Jan.2007. An ATN thermal w/ the same QVGA res is now $3k (and prob has a faster update rate.) Full VGA (4x the pixels = 2x the resolution) is $5k+. Our system doesn't have zoom either. You have to swap large expensive germanium crystal lenses.
    http://www.atncorp.com/thermal-weapon-sights

    Active ... ( Mirror spinning at 30Hz) and frequency absorption on Dewar Assembly at -70 Degrees kelvin
    How long have you been retired Gunny?:lol2: No spinning mirrors or cooled sensors in modern thermal systems. -70K is impossibly cold too:D
     

    StickShaker

    Active Member
    Mar 3, 2016
    888
    Montgomery
    These are really nice its basically a Digital NVGs

    http://www.atncorp.com/smart-hd-weapon-sight

    I have been considering that scope for a mouse hunting rig, .22 or pellet. In the past few years folks, here and especially across the pond, have been building some very nice home brew night vision with inexpensive digital cameras and IR lasers but I'm not a fan of the external clutter it required like cables, monitors, battery packs, etc....
     

    IMBLITZVT

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 20, 2009
    3,799
    Catonsville, MD
    Yes its cool but limited use. Our FLIR is 320x240 (QVGA) and is really the bare MINIMUM I think anyone would find useful. I've taken it home on multiple occasions and had fun with it. Anything less is just using image processing algorithms to make stuff look sharper, the the real data isn't actually there. I just looked up our camera in our PO list. Bought for $14,500 on 24.Jan.2007. An ATN thermal w/ the same QVGA res is now $3k (and prob has a faster update rate.) Full VGA (4x the pixels = 2x the resolution) is $5k+. Our system doesn't have zoom either. You have to swap large expensive germanium crystal lenses.
    http://www.atncorp.com/thermal-weapon-sights..

    Yes, I am considering it as about like a Fast Fire or Trijicon RMR. Not really like a real optic. At $900 for the Torrey Pines T12-W (Most expensive model), vs that ATN at $3K... do you think its a better value at $3k?

    For me I have been kind of thinking of it as a cheaper way to see if Thermal sighting is at all fun at the range. Hot targets? I mean if I was shooting at people in the woods, sure... but I am not. Pretty much range use. So I have to dream up ways to use it.

    If I am buying bottom of the barrel Thermal... $900 is a lot easier to get over replacing than $3k....
     

    smdub

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 14, 2012
    4,643
    MoCo
    Remind me and I'll bring our flir camera out (we still need to do that shrike test!) You can decide for yourself if it would be useful using only 1/16 of the screen area:)
     

    IMBLITZVT

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 20, 2009
    3,799
    Catonsville, MD
    Remind me and I'll bring our flir camera out (we still need to do that shrike test!) You can decide for yourself if it would be useful using only 1/16 of the screen area:)

    You keep forgetting.... I have already seen these little thermals. I know how small it is. Its like half or a third the size of an EO tech.... Felt just a bit bigger than a RMR screen.

    However yes we do need to test the Shrike.
     

    smdub

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 14, 2012
    4,643
    MoCo
    Not the physical size but the # of pixels (its literally 1/16 the # of pixels of our QVGA unit.) And at a range where you can see real situations.
     

    IMBLITZVT

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 20, 2009
    3,799
    Catonsville, MD
    Not the physical size but the # of pixels (its literally 1/16 the # of pixels of our QVGA unit.) And at a range where you can see real situations.

    For the size, and use... it seemed fine. You are not looking to tell the temp range of the body. You are looking for the outline of the body and aim in the middle. Sure if you want to be able to see what parts of the body is a little warmer or cooler or see exactly where a heat is leaving a window... not much use. However if you are using it to see a person in the woods, its more than enough. They stand out from the back ground big time. Would it be good in the desert were there are only small differences at time? Maybe not. If you want to shoot some in say the eye, yeah you are not going to be able to make it out verse the rest of the head. However if all you care about is a head shot its fine. If you are trying to identify what you are looking at, that might be harder too. However if you know what you are looking at, it should not be an issue.
     

    smdub

    Ultimate Member
    MDS Supporter
    Nov 14, 2012
    4,643
    MoCo
    ...However if all you care about is a head shot its fine.

    Yeah, if they are 10' from you;) Wait until you see what something at 50yds looks like. I have *FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE* trying to spot our old dog across my yard in the dark w/ a QVGA sensor. Not holding something at a show that "seemed fine". I don't know how better to convey a 80x60 sensor will be WORTHLESS on a rifle.

    Most of these are ~1x optical mag. A human at distance is narrower than a pixel:
    The T12 has a 25deg field of view /80 pixels horiz = 19 MOA/pixel. So a 8" target (approx width of my head) is 1 pixel TOTAL at 50yd. At a 100yds is beyond useless. Still think you could hit a 8" target?
    The ATN is ~21deg FOV / 320 = 4 MOA/pixel. 8" target = 4 pixels across (16 total) @ 50, 2 pixels wide (4 total) @ 100yd.

    Edit: I might have saved screen captures from it. Will search when I get home. I found a rabbit w/ it once (we had tons before the hawks moved in next door) but I was prob <10' away.
     

    IMBLITZVT

    Ultimate Member
    Apr 20, 2009
    3,799
    Catonsville, MD
    Yeah, if they are 10' from you;) Wait until you see what something at 50yds looks like. I have *FIRST HAND EXPERIENCE* trying to spot our old dog across my yard in the dark w/ a QVGA sensor. Not holding something at a show that "seemed fine". I don't know how better to convey a 80x60 sensor will be WORTHLESS on a rifle.

    Most of these are ~1x optical mag. A human at distance is narrower than a pixel:
    The T12 has a 25deg field of view /80 pixels horiz = 19 MOA/pixel. So a 8" target (approx width of my head) is 1 pixel TOTAL at 50yd. At a 100yds is beyond useless. Still think you could hit a 8" target?
    The ATN is ~21deg FOV / 320 = 4 MOA/pixel. 8" target = 4 pixels across (16 total) @ 50, 2 pixels wide (4 total) @ 100yd.

    Edit: I might have saved screen captures from it. Will search when I get home. I found a rabbit w/ it once (we had tons before the hawks moved in next door) but I was prob <10' away.

    The Gun show was in a big hall, easy 100 yards viewing distance. I tried to spot a guy walking with handcart at 100 Yardish. I think I was able to pick him out as he was moving quicker. Now he was not more than a stick figure but if I had an AR15 under it, I could have shot that stick figure... Had he been the only one there instead of having 50 other people in the view too, it would have been very easy.

    T12-W that I was using has 12.5 degrees VOF. http://tplogic.com/thermal-solutions/t10/t12/ Your math it fine, just double or cut in half as needed. However my experience showed something else. You assume that its only one pixel, however each pixel to the side picks up some of your head. Hell I don't know... the heat radiating off the person must have bled into the other pixels... but it looked like stick figure walking on the screen and I bet I would have hit it with a rifle. I will have to ask Jon again as he looked at it too... We both thought it was cool.
     

    Jaybeez

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Patriot Picket
    May 30, 2006
    6,392
    Darlington MD
    Issues, sure but its pretty cool. I kind of think of it like a fast fire type red dot. Added to a pistol or as a secondary on top of an ACOG or.... it would be awesome to add to a NV setup.

    As far as the comparison to the seek, sure but how do you add that to a gun?

    I don't know guys its really pretty cool! I might wait for the price to come down a bit but I see myself getting one down the road.

    It doesnt matter how you would add a seek thermal to a gun... you wouldn't want to. it would be useless. along with any other device in the resolution class. thats the point im trying to convey.

    you need to identify your target. always. detection does not equal identification.

    ignoring the probably and maybes, i have actually measured distances and tested a similar core. its not up to the hype. 100 yards the dot could be a man, a dog, or a hot car engine block. its not a weapon sight quality image.

    if you want to spend $1000+ and have a good thermal device with multiple uses, look at the therm-app.

    if you want a decent mono the pulsar hd19.


    and a bright color led screeen pointed at your face would not be good for any nv setup.
     

    GoGoGadget

    Deplorable Member
    Mar 10, 2011
    2,959
    A.A.Co. and Carteret Co. NC
    I'm thinking of getting my first NVG, mostly just for fun. I figure that I'll take the "buy once, cry once" route and get a quality Gen III PVS-14.

    For those in the know:

    Is TNVC still the go-to vendor for reasonably priced PVS-14s?

    I notice that they (TVNC) have "blem" units from time to time for a discount - any reason NOT go go with one of these?

    Thanks in advance!
     

    Jarhead FLSTI

    Active Member
    Aug 31, 2008
    804
    Glen Burnie
    I'm thinking of getting my first NVG, mostly just for fun. I figure that I'll take the "buy once, cry once" route and get a quality Gen III PVS-14.

    For those in the know:

    Is TNVC still the go-to vendor for reasonably priced PVS-14s?

    I notice that they (TVNC) have "blem" units from time to time for a discount - any reason NOT go go with one of these?

    Thanks in advance!

    I bought a Gen III PVS-14 a few years ago. It's a really cool toy that spends most of the time sitting in my gun safe. When I was pricing new ones, TNVC had the best prices for quality night vision. I ended up buying a slightly used one on ebay for about $600 less than brand new.

    Most of the blem units that I've seen still have great images. They may have a dark spot or two around the edges but are more than adequate for what most of us would ever need.

    My avatar pic was taken with my cell phone pressed against the eyepiece of my PVS-14 at 3am on a cloudy night after a few too many beers.

    Full size pic...
     

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