MD "Assault pistols"

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  • novus collectus

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 1, 2005
    17,358
    Bowie
    I am asking this in this MD 2A forum because I assume this will be a thread about the "assault pistol" list overall.


    I am wondering about the AP on the AP list. It says that copies are illegal as well, but I am not familiar with most of tha handguns on the list so I do not know if what I want to make is illegal or not.

    I was kinda considering making a PPSh pistol in closed bolt configuration as a novelty and I don't know if it matches up with one of the banned handguns as a copy. Does anyone know?
    Can anyone tell the rest of what these guns even are?
    These are the handguns banned in MD:
    AA Arms AP-9 semi-automatics
    Bushmaster semi-automatic pistol;
    Claridge HI-TEC, semi-automatic pistol;
    D Max Industries semi-automatic pistol;
    Encom MK-IV, MP-9, MP-45 semi-automatic pistols;
    Heckler and Koch semi-automatic pistol SP-89;
    Holmes MP-83 semi-automatic pistol;
    Ingram MAC 10/11 semi-automatic pistol and any variation including the Partisan Avenger and the SWD Cobray;
    Intratec TEC-9/DC-9 in any centerfire variation;
    P.A.W.S. type semi-automatic pistol;
    Skorpion semi-automatic pistol;
    Spectre double action semi-automatic pistol (Sile, F.I.E., Mitchell);
    UZI semi-automatic pistol;
    Weaver Arms semi-automatic Nighthawk pistol; and
    Wilkinson semi-automatic "Linda" pistol.
     

    zoostation

    , ,
    Moderator
    Jan 28, 2007
    22,857
    Abingdon
    I'm vaguely familiar with most of those and in my opinion I don't see anything remotely matching the ppsh 41 on there. Nonetheless I would look them all up very carefully first though. www.world.guns.ru is usually an excellent quick resource. Remember what you and I think is a copy and what some anti-gun crusading prosecutor will say is a copy might be two very different things entirely.
     

    h2u

    Village Idiot
    Jul 8, 2007
    6,693
    South County
    Novus- I think you can still have the pistol regardless of it being on the banned list (or not on the roster).
    Someone please correct me if I'm wrong: My limited understanding is that if something is "banned" or not on the gun roster- you can go NFA with it. Pay the tax stamp and don't get declined.
    I've always wanted one of the Black Widow pocket derringers in .22mag. It's not on the roster, but if I fill out forms like it's class III, no problem. Maybe because the "assault pistols" are specifically banned- it's a different case. I'm certain someone will know.
     

    novus collectus

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 1, 2005
    17,358
    Bowie
    I have found a few so far...
    AA Arms AP-9 semi-automatics
    Bushmaster semi-automatic pistol;
    Claridge HI-TEC, semi-automatic pistol;
    D Max Industries semi-automatic pistol;
    Encom MK-IV, MP-9, MP-45 semi-automatic pistols;
    Heckler and Koch semi-automatic pistol SP-89;
    Holmes MP-83 semi-automatic pistol;
    Ingram MAC 10/11 semi-automatic pistol and any variation including the Partisan Avenger and the SWD Cobray; this seems to be a version of the MAC 10
    Intratec TEC-9/DC-9 in any centerfire variation;
    P.A.W.S. type semi-automatic pistol;
    Skorpion semi-automatic pistol;
    Spectre double action semi-automatic pistol (Sile, F.I.E., Mitchell);
    UZI semi-automatic pistol;
    Weaver Arms semi-automatic Nighthawk pistol; and
    Wilkinson semi-automatic "Linda" pistol.
     

    zoostation

    , ,
    Moderator
    Jan 28, 2007
    22,857
    Abingdon
    Thanks for the link and the advice.

    I wonder if there was ever a court case addressing a copy?


    If there is I've never heard of one. I don't think there have been more of a handful of "assault pistol" cases and most of those were probably wrapped in with drug cases. Still a good idea to be very careful. As I recall a conviction under that statute is a misdemeanor with up to a three year stint in the Bubba Love Hotel.

    The same question you're asking about the ppsh has been asked in the past about homebuilding an AK pistol. I'm no lawyer but I don't see anything illegal about it, still for some reason I'd feel uncomfortable doing it the way things are in this state.

    To go the NFA route I believe you'd have to be building the short-barreled rifle version of the weapon. I'm not aware of an NFA exemption to the assault pistols law. I'm sure the differences between the pistol and SBR versions are very small but they are there.

    Okay, 0030 hours, time to go to bed before I get another "trying to fathom Maryland gun laws" headache. :)
     

    novus collectus

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 1, 2005
    17,358
    Bowie
    Novus- I think you can still have the pistol regardless of it being on the banned list (or not on the roster).
    Someone please correct me if I'm wrong: My limited understanding is that if something is "banned" or not on the gun roster- you can go NFA with it. Pay the tax stamp and don't get declined.
    I've always wanted one of the Black Widow pocket derringers in .22mag. It's not on the roster, but if I fill out forms like it's class III, no problem. Maybe because the "assault pistols" are specifically banned- it's a different case. I'm certain someone will know.

    Unless it is registered as an NFA device, registered as an AP before 1994 or passing through the state under the federal law, it is illegal to posses one of the "assault pistols" in MD.

    Can I own a semi-automatic assault pistol?
    No, after June 1, 1994, a person may not;
    (1) Transport an assault pistol into the State; or
    (2) Possess, sell, offer to sell, transfer, purchase, or receive an assault pistol in the State, EXCEPT; A person who lawfully possessed an assault pistol before June 1, 1994 may continue to possess the assault pistol if the person registered the assault pistol with the Secretary of the State Police before August 1, 1994.
    If a handgun is not on the roster, the roster just means you cannot buy, sell, transfer, rent or manufature for sale any gun not on it and made after 1984.
    If you wanted the derringer that is not on the MD roster, you can make it yourself as long as you do not intend to sell it, or you can buy one as a resident of another state and bring it here, or if you are an FFL importing it to the state and it is not for sale as I understand it.

    The only way I can think of that you could register a Black Widow derringer as an NFA device is if you added features to it to make it an AOW, or if you added a butt stock to make it an SBR......I think the AOW way is more practical :D
    If you added a foregrip it would become an AOW, but that is out of the question.
    If you put a smootmore on it, then it could be an AOW.
    If you changes the configuration so that it does not appear as a handgun, then it becomes an AOW, but that means making it look like some everyday item like a cell phone. There is a briefcase gun that hides a regular gun inside, but because it makes the operating gun look like something else, it is registered as an AOW for instance.
     

    novus collectus

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 1, 2005
    17,358
    Bowie
    If there is I've never heard of one. I don't think there have been more of a handful of "assault pistol" cases and most of those were probably wrapped in with drug cases. Still a good idea to be very careful. As I recall a conviction under that statute is a misdemeanor with up to a three year stint in the Bubba Love Hotel.

    The same question you're asking about the ppsh has been asked in the past about homebuilding an AK pistol. I'm no lawyer but I don't see anything illegal about it, still for some reason I'd feel uncomfortable doing it the way things are in this state.

    To go the NFA route I believe you'd have to be building the short-barreled rifle version of the weapon. I'm not aware of an NFA exemption to the assault pistols law. I'm sure the differences between the pistol and SBR versions are very small but they are there.

    Okay, 0030 hours, time to go to bed before I get another "trying to fathom Maryland gun laws" headache. :)
    As far as the NFA goes, I think it works this way. While an UZI pistol is illegal in MD, an UZI carbine is legal. By it being a rifle it changes the classification. So therefore a short barreled UZI is also classified as something different than a "pistol", so if a rifle and a SBR are theroetically legal if registered, the why not AOW or fully auto versions? They changed at least federal classifications so they are no longer "handguns" and MD often uses fed definitions.

    I thought about the SBR PPSH, but that adds $200 to the cost and I would have to register the reciever, whereas if I just made a pistol for personal use, then I don't have to do any paperwork.
    I would probably have to buy a reciever anyway because making my own reciever is probably beyond my capabilities, but if I did that then I would probably buy the 16 inch barrel kit too. It would cost more than the tax, but at least it has value I can resell.
     

    zoostation

    , ,
    Moderator
    Jan 28, 2007
    22,857
    Abingdon
    Sometimes Military Gun Supply (dot com) in Texas has PPSh rifles in stock.They usually run around 700 dollars. Last time I checked all they had was pistols but it varies with them as they build them in-house.
     

    h2u

    Village Idiot
    Jul 8, 2007
    6,693
    South County
    Hal at the Armory has several derringers (including the Black Widow) for sale and said all you needed to do was "go class III with it". That is the total extent of my knowledge on the subject. We had a very brief discussion about the derringers only.





    Unless it is registered as an NFA device, registered as an AP before 1994 or passing through the state under the federal law, it is illegal to posses one of the "assault pistols" in MD.


    If a handgun is not on the roster, the roster just means you cannot buy, sell, transfer, rent or manufature for sale any gun not on it and made after 1984.
    If you wanted the derringer that is not on the MD roster, you can make it yourself as long as you do not intend to sell it, or you can buy one as a resident of another state and bring it here, or if you are an FFL importing it to the state and it is not for sale as I understand it.

    The only way I can think of that you could register a Black Widow derringer as an NFA device is if you added features to it to make it an AOW, or if you added a butt stock to make it an SBR......I think the AOW way is more practical :D
    If you added a foregrip it would become an AOW, but that is out of the question.
    If you put a smootmore on it, then it could be an AOW.
    If you changes the configuration so that it does not appear as a handgun, then it becomes an AOW, but that means making it look like some everyday item like a cell phone. There is a briefcase gun that hides a regular gun inside, but because it makes the operating gun look like something else, it is registered as an AOW for instance.
     

    novus collectus

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 1, 2005
    17,358
    Bowie
    Sometimes Military Gun Supply (dot com) in Texas has PPSh rifles in stock.They usually run around 700 dollars. Last time I checked all they had was pistols but it varies with them as they build them in-house.
    Sounds like a good idea, but I doubt it would get on the MD roster so I could have it delivered in state unless I submitted a request myself which I am not even sure I can even do.
     

    novus collectus

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 1, 2005
    17,358
    Bowie
    Hal at the Armory has several derringers (including the Black Widow) for sale and said all you needed to do was "go class III with it". That is the total extent of my knowledge on the subject. We had a very brief discussion about the derringers only.

    Well there is one way I forgot. If you make it into a rifle and if the FFL recorded it as such I guess, then you made it back into a handgun, you have made a SBR (or AOW?) as I understand it and therefore an NFA device even though it has no butt stock.

    From what I understand Hal has a manufacturers SOT and he can make an AOW without having to pay a tax and then you only have to pay a $5 tax to transfer it to you ($200 for SBR and SBS tax and the $5 tax is only for AOW).
    If you made the AOW, SBR or SBS yourself, then it would be a $200 manufacturing tax.

    Hal has a good deal going where you pay his Title II transfer fee and you only have to pay $5 extra for the tax (if an AOW).
    I thought about utilizing Hal's services myself. :thumbsup:
     

    novus collectus

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 1, 2005
    17,358
    Bowie
    I have found a few so far...
    AA Arms AP-9 semi-automatics
    Bushmaster semi-automatic pistol;
    Claridge HI-TEC, semi-automatic pistol;
    D Max Industries semi-automatic pistol;
    Encom MK-IV, MP-9, MP-45 semi-automatic pistols;
    Heckler and Koch semi-automatic pistol SP-89;
    Holmes MP-83 semi-automatic pistol;
    Ingram MAC 10/11 semi-automatic pistol and any variation including the Partisan Avenger and the SWD Cobray; this seems to be a version of the MAC 10
    Intratec TEC-9/DC-9 in any centerfire variation;
    P.A.W.S. type semi-automatic pistol;
    Skorpion semi-automatic pistol;
    Spectre double action semi-automatic pistol (Sile, F.I.E., Mitchell);
    UZI semi-automatic pistol;
    Weaver Arms semi-automatic Nighthawk pistol; and
    Wilkinson semi-automatic "Linda" pistol.
    Found a few more.


    AA Arms AP-9
    Bushmaster pistol
    Claridge HI-TEC
    D Max Industries
    Encom MK-IV
    Heckler and Koch semi-automatic pistol SP-89
    Holmes MP-83 (not available)
    Ingram MAC 10/11 (we all know this one so I won't bother with a link)
    Intratec TEC-9/DC-9 (ditto)
    P.A.W.S.
    Skorpion
    Spectre
    UZI (if you do not know what an UZI looks like by now....)
    Weaver Arms semi-automatic Nighthawk pistol
    Wilkinson Linda

    14 out of fifteen!! :party29: Finally (almost) finished the list.
     

    kohburn

    Resident MacGyver
    MDS Supporter
    Aug 15, 2008
    6,796
    PAX NAS / CP MCAS
    most of those dodn't even look like pistols to me -

    a lot of grease gun style designs

    so is it just the magazien capacity or is it the caliber making them AP's?
     

    novus collectus

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 1, 2005
    17,358
    Bowie
    most of those dodn't even look like pistols to me -

    a lot of grease gun style designs

    so is it just the magazien capacity or is it the caliber making them AP's?

    It is neither, it is that they look scary.....seriously, it had nothing to do with their mechanical function, purpose, or ability. It all had to do with how they were used in the drug gangster movies at the time inthe late 80s early 90s.....kinda like how Westside Story and tough guy or Brando movies probably led to the interstate sales ban on switchblades.
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    most of those dodn't even look like pistols to me -

    a lot of grease gun style designs

    so is it just the magazien capacity or is it the caliber making them AP's?

    judging from the list, in order to be an "assault pistol"

    it has to be an inacurate and unweildy behemoth basically a semi auto verison of a SMG or PDW. However if you add a shoulder stock or have a Full auto version that actually gives it some utility, then it is NFA, and ok to have:rolleyes:

    Me thinks some legislators crapped themselves one to many times watching driveby scenes in 80s blacksploitation films:D
     

    alucard0822

    For great Justice
    Oct 29, 2007
    17,643
    PA
    It is neither, it is that they look scary.....seriously, it had nothing to do with their mechanical function, purpose, or ability. It all had to do with how they were used in the drug gangster movies at the time inthe late 80s early 90s.....kinda like how Westside Story and tough guy or Brando movies probably led to the interstate sales ban on switchblades.

    beat me to it, you know what they say about great minds:D
     

    4g64loser

    Bad influence
    Jan 18, 2007
    6,381
    maryland
    i get a lot of questions about how to get around the MD assault pistol thing. Richard did a few skorpions for people that he mated stocks to (original flipover East German units) and the UZI thing always comes up......solution is to make it an SBR or go full auto. as for this question, well, there may be a ppsh or two floating around richard's safe, but if such weapons were to be present they would, of course, be fully automatic.
     

    Jim Keenan

    Active Member
    Aug 16, 2008
    259
    If I understand correctly, the NFA rules don't apply in MD. The MSP will not register any NFA firearms except machineguns, so a Federal SBR or SBS may still be illegal in MD. As to registering something like the MAC semi-auto pistol to get around the assault pistol ban, that wouldn't work. The Feds won't register it in the NFRTR since it is to them an ordinary pistol. And the MSP would register it only for a short period after the law was passed, and today will confiscate it and arrest the owner.

    While I don't agree with the law, the fact is that at that time, we were darned lucky to not have a complete ban on semi-autos of any kind. It took a lot of lobbying to get those rifles treated like handguns and limit the ban to "assault pistols."

    Jim
     

    novus collectus

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 1, 2005
    17,358
    Bowie
    If I understand correctly, the NFA rules don't apply in MD.
    They do.

    The MSP will not register any NFA firearms except machineguns,

    The only NFA that is required to be registered with MD are MG and maybe explosive DD, the other NFA are not required to be registered with the state.

    so a Federal SBR or SBS may still be illegal in MD.
    As long as they are registered federally, they are legal in MD.
    This is the code:

    5-203. Possession of short-barreled rifle or
    short-barreled shotgun.
    (a) Prohibited. A person may not possess a
    short-barreled rifle or short-barreled shotgun unless:
    (1) the person, while on official business is:
    (i) a member of the law enforcement personnel
    of the federal government, the State, or a political
    subdivision of the State;
    (ii) a member of the armed forces of the
    United States or the National Guard while on
    duty or traveling to or from duty;
    (iii) a member of the law enforcement personnel
    of another state or a political subdivision of
    another state, while temporarily in this State;
    (iv) a warden or correctional officer of a correctional
    facility in the State; or
    (v) a sheriff or a temporary or full-time deputy
    sheriff; or
    (2) the short-barreled shotgun or short-barreled
    rifle has been registered with the federal
    government in accordance with federal law.


    Think about it, all SBR applications for federal registration go to the MDSP first. If they were illegal in MD, then they would not have signed off on the dozens of SBRs at the last MDShooter's shoot alone.

    As to registering something like the MAC semi-auto pistol to get around the assault pistol ban, that wouldn't work. The Feds won't register it in the NFRTR since it is to them an ordinary pistol.
    Yes, they will register it if you turn it into an SBR or an AOW. All you have to do is get an SOT to convert it, then get the tax stamp for it and have it transfered to you as a registered NFA device.

    And the MSP would register it only for a short period after the law was passed, and today will confiscate it and arrest the owner.
    If it is an SBR, it is no longer a pistol, so therefore does not fit the description on the AP list and so therefore is not a banned "assault pistol".
    People have done this before in MD so we know it is not only possible, it is a fact.
     

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