Now that full lowers are allowed - what about 80%?

Pinecone · Aug 28, 2014

Haides said:
Okay. I'm not going to get into manufacturing vs assembly, because I think with too much common sense to be able to understand the stupid ways these laws are written and interpreted lol. So I'll assume you're right with that.

More importantly, however, consider the following two scenarios:

(a) You purchased a lower pre-10/1/13. You assembled the lower into a full rifle pre-10/1/13. How does the state know you assembled it? How can you prove you did? Is the burden of proof even on you to do so? Is the state going to charge you with possessing a banned firearm when they have a pre-10/1/13 77r for it? Under your interpretation, even lowers that you did assemble aren't safe. So it doesn't matter.

(b) You purchased a lower pre-10/1/13. You did not assemble it before 10/1/13. How does the state know you didn't assemble it? How can they prove you didn't? Is the state going to charge you with possessing a banned firearm when they have a pre-10/1/13 77r for it? IMO, they can't. Even if it does work that way, it's completely unenforceable.

Burden of proof is on the state. But meantime, you have to deal with the legal bills and confiscation of firearms.

What some people did was to take photos of the assembled rifles and had them notarized (dated). That proves that they were assembled previously.

Or say you bought a number of lowers just before Oct 1, but did not own any uppers. Hard to say they were assembled into banned configurations prior to Oct 1 then.

As with everything, you have to decide for YOURSELF, what level of risk you are willing to take.

The law and MSP interpretation is that if the rifle did not exist in banned configuration prior to Oct 1, then it cannot be made into banned configuration now, even on pre-Oct 1 lowers.

And the same thing with making a stripped lower. BATFE says if you build it as a pistol, you can convert it to a rifle and then back to a pistol. But if you build it as a rifle first, it must stay a rifle or get a tax stamp.

Your choice whether to follow it or not.

And if you choose not to do so, then it is not wise to talk about it on a public forum.

Now the other question is, could you legally put a regulated upper on a non-regulated lower (pre Oct 1)?

Pinecone · Aug 28, 2014

rmiddle said:
Are uppers date stamped? I don't know as I have never looked. If they have a date on them that is after 10/1/2013 then it will be pretty easy for the state to prove it was built after 10/1/2013.

Thanks
Robert

Uppers are not typically stamped with date or a serial number.

Some barrels are dated, but not all.

For this reason, I would make sure I kept any records of purchasing any uppers pre-Oct 1.

Haides · Aug 28, 2014

Right, you may not have owned any uppers before 10/1 but the state has no way of knowing that, nor can they prove that you didn't. That's all I'm saying, I don't feel the need to worry about it. This is all hypothetical, of course

As for putting a regular barreled upper on a non-regulated (former HBAR) lower, I think that's always been a no-no even before the FSA.

dtmeyers · Aug 29, 2014

Pinecone said:
The difference is MANUFACTURING a banned firearm, versus having a grandfathered banned firearm.

If you have a lower from pre-Oct 1, that you did nothing with, and now built a pencil barreled rifle, you have manufactured a banned firearm. If you did this before Oct 1, you can still have it in the banned configuration, as it is grandfathered.

Look how MSP is telling BATFE to handle SBRs. If the rifle was an SBR before Oct 1, it can be any length. If you make it an SBR now, NO MATTER WHEN THE LOWER WAS PURCHASED, it must be over 29" long, or it is a banned copycat.

Manufacturing is the process of taking raw material and making something out of it. Assembling is taking parts and putting them together.

If I take apart a pistol and reassemble it - I am NOT manufacturing a pistol. If I take apart my laptop and reassemble it - I am NOT manufacturing a computer.

My question was whether a person can manufacture an HBAR configuration from an unfinished lower.

Sticky · Aug 29, 2014

dtmeyers said:
Manufacturing is the process of taking raw material and making something out of it. Assembling is taking parts and putting them together.

If I take apart a pistol and reassemble it - I am NOT manufacturing a pistol. If I take apart my laptop and reassemble it - I am NOT manufacturing a computer.

My question was whether a person can manufacture an HBAR configuration from an unfinished lower.

Substitute 'Assemble' for manufacture and that is how MSP looks at it. If you did not 'build' the firearm out into a final configuration prior to 10/1, they are going to say that you can only now 'build' it into a legal configuration after 10/1

Should one choose to not follow that guidance, they are risking a legal battle, your choice.. many of us choose to stay on the right side of the law, and not delve into the 'gray areas'.. You can buy a completed stripped lower, file the 77r with the vendor, or finish an 80&% lower and build it out into a legal configuration with no paperwork needed...

Many took any pre 10/1 lowers and built them out (in a pistol configuration, to allow flexibility in the future) and documented them in some way as evidence, should we ever need to defend ourselves in a court of law. That way, there are no issues..

As far as finishing an unfinished lower (80%) and assembling it into a 'now legal' configuration, either HBAR or pistol, the answer is yes.. that has not changed. I would again though, document it so that you have some legal standing should you ever need it.. pray no... lol

jrumann59 · Aug 30, 2014

So basically as long as I put a non HBAR upper on it pre 10/1 I am good to go and continue to keep the lowers "stripped". I mean I already used them in a "banned" configuration pre-10/1

Pinecone · Aug 30, 2014

dtmeyers said:
Manufacturing is the process of taking raw material and making something out of it. Assembling is taking parts and putting them together.

If I take apart a pistol and reassemble it - I am NOT manufacturing a pistol. If I take apart my laptop and reassemble it - I am NOT manufacturing a computer.

My question was whether a person can manufacture an HBAR configuration from an unfinished lower.

I agree, that taking apart and putting back together is not manufacturing.

But the MSP and the BATFE will disagree with you about taking a stripped lower and putting together a rifle. THEY consider that to be manufacturing.

Argue with them.

Pinecone · Aug 30, 2014

No idea. If you mean just putting an upper on the stripped lower, without fire control group or buffer tube.

But if you had built them into a functional rifle (even if you did not fire them) in a banned configuration, I think you will good to go. Even if you removed the parts needed to make it functional to do the same to another lower.

dtmeyers · Aug 30, 2014

Pinecone said:
I agree, that taking apart and putting back together is not manufacturing.

But the MSP and the BATFE will disagree with you about taking a stripped lower and putting together a rifle. THEY consider that to be manufacturing.

Argue with them.

Source? Or any documentation? Because Maryland seems to disagree with your definition

http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/f...on=5-131&ext=html&session=2014RS&tab=subject5

“Manufacturer” means a person who possesses a federal license to engage in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for sale or distribution" Maryland Public safety 5-131

Also, if what you say is true then a person who disassembles a grandfathered >10rd magazine to clean it, then reassembles a >10rd magazine is breaking the law

"A person may not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, purchase, receive, or transfer a detachable magazine that has a capacity of more than 10 rounds of ammunition for a firearm." Maryland Criminal Late 4-305

Lastly, if you're right - suppose a dealer has an old Ruger Single six and took time apart to clean it. According to 5-132 they cannot sell it as they manufactured a firearm without an internal safety.

"On or after January 1, 2003, a dealer may not sell, offer for sale, rent, or transfer in the State a handgun manufactured on or after January 1, 2003, unless the handgun has an integrated mechanical safety device."

For the ATF Ruling 2011-4 was about pistol/rifle kits and contains this

" A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts within a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length)."

So, as I read it, you aren't making a firearm when you are assembling or re-assembling from a kit

ATF 5320-8 CH 7 states

7.2.2 “Manufacturing”. “Manufacturing” is not defined by the law, regulations, or any formal ATF ruling. Nevertheless, the term has been interpreted by ATF to cover activities other than producing a firearm from scratch. As interpreted by ATF, the term covers virtually any work performed on a firearm during the process of preparing the firearm for subsequent sale.

Now this is ambiguous but remember that a lower is of itself a firearm. Form 4473 states "type of firearm to be transferred" and lists "other firearm" which includes receiver.

So if a lower is a considered firearm you cannot further manufacture it - it is already a manufactured firearm. That's how I read it from the laws.

I'm not saying you're wrong but reading over Maryland and ATF firearm laws I do not see any documented example where assembling an ar15 from preexisting parts is considered manufacturing. If you can provide such data I'd like to see it and learn some more.

jrumann59 · Aug 31, 2014

Pinecone said:
No idea. If you mean just putting an upper on the stripped lower, without fire control group or buffer tube.

But if you had built them into a functional rifle (even if you did not fire them) in a banned configuration, I think you will good to go. Even if you removed the parts needed to make it functional to do the same to another lower.

Basically I built out my lowers and threw a "banned" configuration on them prior to 10/1 and due to the unreliability of the AR platform I had to then remove functional parts from my lowers to repair my other rifles oh and for safety reasons I do not want my lowers to go out and kill people. :innocent0

Pinecone · Aug 31, 2014

dtmeyers said:
Source? Or any documentation? Because Maryland seems to disagree with your definition

http://mgaleg.maryland.gov/webmga/f...on=5-131&ext=html&session=2014RS&tab=subject5

“Manufacturer” means a person who possesses a federal license to engage in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for sale or distribution" Maryland Public safety 5-131

Also, if what you say is true then a person who disassembles a grandfathered >10rd magazine to clean it, then reassembles a >10rd magazine is breaking the law

"A person may not manufacture, sell, offer for sale, purchase, receive, or transfer a detachable magazine that has a capacity of more than 10 rounds of ammunition for a firearm." Maryland Criminal Late 4-305

Lastly, if you're right - suppose a dealer has an old Ruger Single six and took time apart to clean it. According to 5-132 they cannot sell it as they manufactured a firearm without an internal safety.

"On or after January 1, 2003, a dealer may not sell, offer for sale, rent, or transfer in the State a handgun manufactured on or after January 1, 2003, unless the handgun has an integrated mechanical safety device."

For the ATF Ruling 2011-4 was about pistol/rifle kits and contains this

" A firearm, as defined by 26 U.S.C. 5845(a)(3) and (a)(4), is not made when parts within a kit that were originally designed to be configured as both a pistol and a rifle are assembled or re-assembled in a configuration not regulated under the NFA (e.g., as a pistol, or a rifle with a barrel or barrels of 16 inches or more in length)."

So, as I read it, you aren't making a firearm when you are assembling or re-assembling from a kit

ATF 5320-8 CH 7 states

7.2.2 “Manufacturing”. “Manufacturing” is not defined by the law, regulations, or any formal ATF ruling. Nevertheless, the term has been interpreted by ATF to cover activities other than producing a firearm from scratch. As interpreted by ATF, the term covers virtually any work performed on a firearm during the process of preparing the firearm for subsequent sale.

Now this is ambiguous but remember that a lower is of itself a firearm. Form 4473 states "type of firearm to be transferred" and lists "other firearm" which includes receiver.

So if a lower is a considered firearm you cannot further manufacture it - it is already a manufactured firearm. That's how I read it from the laws.

I'm not saying you're wrong but reading over Maryland and ATF firearm laws I do not see any documented example where assembling an ar15 from preexisting parts is considered manufacturing. If you can provide such data I'd like to see it and learn some more.

You keep throwing in disassembly and reassembly of some item with taking separate parts (never having been assembled) and assembling them.

The first is NOT manufacturing. The second IS.

If you buy any legal firearm or magazine and take it apart and put it back together the same way it was, you are NOT manufacturing. Even if you replace parts of the same type and function, you are NOT manufacturing. If you have an AR with pencil barrel, you can disassemble it into individual parts and put it back together. You can even replace one pencil barrel with another.

You buy a bunch of parts and put them together, you ARE manufacturing. Or if you put in a new part that is different from the part you are replacing, you are manufacturing. If you buy a bunch of AR parts and put them together into a functioning AR, you are manufacturing. If you replace the HBAR barrel with a pencil barrel, you are manufacturing a banned firearm.

Remember, you can legally make a LEGAL firearm for your self. An 07 FFL is only required if you make them for sale.

Like with magazines, there are companies that will sell you, as an MD resident, magazine parts kits. Perfectly legal. But if you assemble those while in MD you are breaking the law. Take them out of MD to assemble, and bring back, you are fine.

Also, look at the thread about Fox Firearms replacing the barrels on pencil barrel Colt Ars. That requires an 07 FFL, as they are taking parts that were not previously assembled and putting them together for sale

Now that full lowers are allowed - what about 80%?

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