14.5" Barrel Question

NateIU10 · Dec 7, 2013

Here's a pretty good breakdown on the subject:
http://blog.princelaw.com/2009/7/8/nfa-and-constructive-possession-myth-or-reality/

And an example of someone who got arrested for constructive possession:
http://blog.princelaw.com/2009/09/01/florida-man-arrested-for-constructive-possession-of-an-sbr/

Constructive possession is about all the facts and circumstances, not solely possessing the items. If it were, anyone who owned an AR pistol and AR rifle would constructively possess an SBR.

Kingjamez · Dec 7, 2013

Thanks Nate, excellent reference. Note that in the 2009 H&K example, the guy selling the "pistol" had a case with it and the cut out for the pistol in the foam was also cut out for the vertical foregrip. Plus he was selling the stock for the pistol as an "accessory"... To a cop. No question there whatsoever.

I posit that if the OP never installs his 14.5" barrel into an upper receiver (and by extension it can't be installed on a lower) and permanently attaches the muzzle device in a reasonable amount of time that he would be well outside of constructive possession or intent.
-Jim

NateIU10 · Dec 7, 2013

I agree.

Kingjamez said:
Thanks Nate, excellent reference. Note that in the 2009 H&K example, the guy selling the "pistol" had a case with it and the cut out for the pistol in the foam was also cut out for the vertical foregrip. Plus he was selling the stock for the pistol as an "accessory"... To a cop. No question there whatsoever.

I posit that if the OP never installs his 14.5" barrel into an upper receiver (and by extension it can't be installed on a lower) and permanently attaches the muzzle device in a reasonable amount of time that he would be well outside of constructive possession or intent.
-Jim

Hopalong · Dec 9, 2013

Thanks again folks. Looks like I'll definitely be going the "buy the assembled upper" route to save the worry.

Decoy · Dec 9, 2013

bobthefisher said:
Send the short barrel to a friend/relative that doesn't possess an AR-15 (might be tough), get some 1100 degree F Silver Solder. Get some high temp gloves, bench vice, and a torch then weld it on! Never done it before, but I ass-u-me that would be close to the steps I would use. That, or have it sent to a gunsmith with a SOT.

1100 degree F Silver Solder is not approved by the ATF. It has to be pinned and welded.

IMBLITZVT · Dec 9, 2013

Decoy said:
1100 degree F Silver Solder is not approved by the ATF. It has to be pinned and welded.

Wrong... Most certainly is approved method.

Permanent methods of attachment include full-fusion gas or electric steel-seam welding, high-temperature (1100°F) silver
soldering, or blind pinning with the pin head welded over

Page 5 and 6
http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf

erwos · Dec 9, 2013

Kingjamez said:
Thanks Nate, excellent reference. Note that in the 2009 H&K example, the guy selling the "pistol" had a case with it and the cut out for the pistol in the foam was also cut out for the vertical foregrip. Plus he was selling the stock for the pistol as an "accessory"... To a cop. No question there whatsoever.

My understanding is that guy had those charges dropped, by the way. If they couldn't get him in that case, it's real hard to believe they'd nail anyone else.

The only case I'm aware of with a successful "constructive possession of SBR" charge was when the dude was already building illegal MGs. That is to say, it was a tack-on to a much more serious charge. I'm not going to tell people to not worry about constructive possession, but much like 922r, it's more of a paper tiger than a real concern. You should be compliant, but if you find an amazing deal on something that could cause issues, storing it with a friend or family member will probably be good enough until the stamp comes in.

NateIU10 · Dec 9, 2013

erwos said:
My understanding is that guy had those charges dropped, by the way. If they couldn't get him in that case, it's real hard to believe they'd nail anyone else.

The only case I'm aware of with a successful "constructive possession of SBR" charge was when the dude was already building illegal MGs. That is to say, it was a tack-on to a much more serious charge. I'm not going to tell people to not worry about constructive possession, but much like 922r, it's more of a paper tiger than a real concern. You should be compliant, but if you find an amazing deal on something that could cause issues, storing it with a friend or family member will probably be good enough until the stamp comes in.

Great follow-up information, thanks! :party29:

Decoy · Dec 13, 2013

IMBLITZVT said:
Wrong... Most certainly is approved method.

Page 5 and 6
http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf

Then I stand corrected, I guess I was misinformed by the ATF agent I spoke to, good to know.

bobthefisher · Dec 13, 2013

Decoy said:
Then I stand corrected, I guess I was misinformed by the ATF agent I spoke to, good to know.

No shocker there, never believe verbatim any ATF field agent or phone jockeys.

rico903 · Dec 24, 2013

Boom Boom said:
Chief, constructive possession is illegal. Capiche?

So if I were to have a RR M16 and with more than one short barreled upper and also some other AR's would that be constructive intent?

Ab_Normal · Dec 24, 2013

rico903 said:
So if I were to have a RR M16 and with more than one short barreled upper and also some other AR's would that be constructive intent?

Depends on whether or not they wanted to apply the rule of lenity or not.

huesmann · Dec 24, 2013

rico903 said:
So if I were to have a RR M16 and with more than one short barreled upper and also some other AR's would that be constructive intent?

If ATF came by to inspect your guns and you had any of the shorty uppers mounted on a lower that you don't have an SBR stamp for, then I'd say you'd be booking yourself a trip to the pokey. If you only had a shorty upper on your stamped lower, and the other shorty uppers were stored away, I think you could reasonably claim that they were intended only for use on your stamped lower.

rico903 · Dec 25, 2013

I'd never put a shorty on a non SBR but wouldn't mind having a couple of different uppers. For instance a DI and Piston, or a 9mm.

IMBLITZVT · Dec 27, 2013

rico903 said:
I'd never put a shorty on a non SBR but wouldn't mind having a couple of different uppers. For instance a DI and Piston, or a 9mm.

I have heard of people tagging these uppers with tags reminding them they are for the NFA lower only. Maybe even going as far as a tie wrap through one of the pin holes, so you must cut the tag off saying "only for NFA use" to put it on any lower.

I am about to have the same problem. I will have a Registered M16 thats coming with a 10.5" barrel upper. I don't plan to shoot it that much, so it will sit around. I just plan to store it away from my other ARs... What more can you do? As I have said many times, the ATF is like the IRS... if they really want to find something illegal, they will.

Hopalong · Dec 27, 2013

IMBLITZVT said:
I have heard of people tagging these uppers with tags reminding them they are for the NFA lower only. Maybe even going as far as a tie wrap through one of the pin holes, so you must cut the tag off saying "only for NFA use" to put it on any lower.

I am about to have the same problem. I will have a Registered M16 thats coming with a 10.5" barrel upper. I don't plan to shoot it that much, so it will sit around. I just plan to store it away from my other ARs... What more can you do? As I have said many times, the ATF is like the IRS... if they really want to find something illegal, they will.

If a lower is registered as a MG, you can have any length upper on it without separately registering it as an SBR, right?

(Not in the FA market, just checking my knowledge.)

Kingjamez · Dec 27, 2013

Hopalong said:
If a lower is registered as a MG, you can have any length upper on it without separately registering it as an SBR, right?

(Not in the FA market, just checking my knowledge.)

A machine gun may legally have any length barrel with no additional tax stamp.

-Jim

DoubleTap007 · Dec 28, 2013

One of the easiest ways is to buy a pinned and welded upper. CMMG makes a good one, complete upper. You can still swap the barrel to a different upper, only issue is that you can't change to a free float rail, well not easily if it has a front sight post.

14.5" Barrel Question

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