Buying an M11/9 - what to look for?

5.56blaster · Nov 25, 2014

I have a GREAT Sten. Put on a barrel with 3/4 10 threads for my Mac cans. Its slow if 650 rounds a minute is slow? In MK 5 set up. Shoots like a dream. Ive also had Macs that suck really bad! Burned up sears and are just Macs. The gun was made to be a drop gun a bullet hose. If that's all you can afford I understand getting a Mac but there are lots of better MG's out there. I quit buying MG's when they got over the $1000 mark. I never paid more than $950 for one because they are just toys. Paid around $600 for my Sten and Mac. $950 for AC 556F and $199 for Fleming HK sears. Those were the days. Spending $5000 for a Mac just seems nuts to me. Last MG I bought was in 1993.

IMBLITZVT · Nov 25, 2014

5.56blaster said:
I have a GREAT Sten. Put on a barrel with 3/4 10 threads for my Mac cans. Its slow if 650 rounds a minute is slow? In MK 5 set up. Shoots like a dream. Ive also had Macs that suck really bad! Burned up sears and are just Macs. The gun was made to be a drop gun a bullet hose. If that's all you can afford I understand getting a Mac but there are lots of better MG's out there. I quit buying MG's when they got over the $1000 mark. I never paid more than $950 for one because they are just toys. Paid around $600 for my Sten and Mac. $950 for AC 556F and $199 for Fleming HK sears. Those were the days. Spending $5000 for a Mac just seems nuts to me. Last MG I bought was in 1993.

Yeah you are about 10 years out of date. Macs will soon be well above the price of most entry level SMGs. I bet they will continue to out pace every other MG in terms of increasing in value. They are the base for all SMG uppers for the future. Just like the M16 in the Assault rifle category. With modern uppers, the Max11 is equal to the Uzi in pretty much everything except for the magazine. The single stack mag is the only place where the Uzi beats out the Max11 hands down. Yeah I get what you are saying for the stock bullet hose Mac.

As far as price... $1k... now pretty standard semi auto rifle and pistols bring more. So I mean thats great you got them at that price but our money is worth a lot less today. In 1993, you could also buy your house for 1/3rd to 1/2 of what its worth now...

If you still have a stock Mac at home. You should serious consider buying an upper for it. I bet you will like it more than you Sten when you are done! http://max-11.com/ They are worth every penny.

Blueclawz · Nov 25, 2014

I would suggest shopping a bit harder for your MG purchase and don't just jump at the first piece you find. As for protecting yourself from online purchase fraud - I would suggest a $100 plane ticket for anything costing more than $5k. I have flown to check out cheaper deals and let more expensive cashiers checks arrive USPS sight unseen - let your gut instinct direct your path.

I do have a question for the Hk proponent who stepped into the discussion. What exactly is the benefit of Hk over MAC type firearms? I have attended and participated in enough subgun matches to see that MAC's have stayed at the top of the heap for a reason. Repairs, Replacement parts and upgrades are nearly the cheapest in the market....the same cannot be said for Hk type firearms. I also once owned a Saco/Maremount M60 and it was nothing more than sheetmetal and welds with a trunnion....oh wait, isn't a Hk sheet metal and welds...and stamped Ak's...Hmmmmm
As for the financial decision to "take a second mortgage" to support the NFA collection I highly advise AGAINST that idea. The NFA market while explosive in price increases is also highly volatile and capable of being destroyed much the same as standard Title 1 firearms. Soooo would you rather lose $5k or $25k and possibly your home? Don't get me wrong...I can appreciate a beautiful Billistic PP conversion or Fleming gun like the next guy...but I would never let my hobby dictate my financial future for my family.

YMMV

5.56blaster · Nov 25, 2014

I have a bunch on MG's but they are just toys. I got into them when they weren't to expensive but I would never buy one now. They were a good investment that I made by mistake. One day I will sell them and buy a house someplace warmer. Or a brand new corvette or hell if they keep going up maybe a plane. I bought my first MAC with a can for $550. I enjoy shooting other stuff these days.

5.56blaster · Nov 25, 2014

Unless you buy a Thompson you are going to get sheet metal and spot welds for the most part. Remember most of this stuff was for the military and they buy low bid. Stens cost something like $3.00 to build during WW2.

Mike OTDP · Nov 25, 2014

Back to the OP...The first thing you need to look for is a place to shoot! You're going to be dropping some very serious money, and it would be a terrible pity to not be able to shoot the gun.

erwos · Nov 25, 2014

Mike OTDP said:
Back to the OP...The first thing you need to look for is a place to shoot! You're going to be dropping some very serious money, and it would be a terrible pity to not be able to shoot the gun.

BRGC lets me shoot full-auto after our class 3 dude verifies I'm not going to blow away the baffles, so that's settled. I shoot with a family member at AGC sometimes, but I'm given to understand they're not so hot on full auto.

Mike OTDP · Nov 25, 2014

erwos said:
BRGC lets me shoot full-auto after our class 3 dude verifies I'm not going to blow away the baffles, so that's settled. I shoot with a family member at AGC sometimes, but I'm given to understand they're not so hot on full auto.

That's OK. FWIW, I would recommend investing in a suppressor. Keeping the noise level down makes full auto a lot more palatable to people on the edge.

blksniper2000 · Nov 25, 2014

erwos said:
BRGC lets me shoot full-auto after our class 3 dude verifies I'm not going to blow away the baffles, so that's settled. I shoot with a family member at AGC sometimes, but I'm given to understand they're not so hot on full auto.

The only time you can shoot full auto at the agc is when the Thompson club holds machine shoots, they have them on a pretty consistent basis though

5.56blaster · Nov 25, 2014

Don't forget ammo ain't cheap. Its expensive to get that machine gun smile.

erwos · Nov 25, 2014

5.56blaster said:
Don't forget ammo ain't cheap. Its expensive to get that machine gun smile.

I'm stacked pretty deep on that, including 22lr (which is what I'd assume I'd make a habit of shooting more than 9mm).

smdub · Nov 25, 2014

MDTCA shoots are about every two weeks @ AGC.

IMBLITZVT · Nov 25, 2014

Blueclawz said:
...What exactly is the benefit of Hk over MAC type firearms?...As for the financial decision to "take a second mortgage" to support the NFA collection I highly advise AGAINST that idea. The NFA market while explosive in price increases is also highly volatile and capable of being destroyed much the same as standard Title 1 firearms. Soooo would you rather lose $5k or $25k and possibly your home?....

I was not the one talking HK. However the MP5 is the best handling SMG in the market when shooting. It might not have a bolt hold open and other things that prove nice to have in matches. However if you have your finger on the trigger, no gun will out perform the MP5. Its priced like that for a reason.

Can someone point me to good investments? I don't know there are any, so why not MGs? Highly volatile? Really? My MGs were doing pretty well when my 401K was looking like wave. As far as destroyed... if you think you will ever live in a country where they let you make new MGs as a Citizen... well you have more faith than I!

5.56blaster said:
Unless you buy a Thompson you are going to get sheet metal and spot welds for the most part. Remember most of this stuff was for the military and they buy low bid. Stens cost something like $3.00 to build during WW2.

Maybe in the SMG world but not for other MGs.

Mike OTDP said:
Back to the OP...The first thing you need to look for is a place to shoot! You're going to be dropping some very serious money, and it would be a terrible pity to not be able to shoot the gun.

erwos said:
BRGC lets me shoot full-auto after our class 3 dude verifies I'm not going to blow away the baffles, so that's settled. I shoot with a family member at AGC sometimes, but I'm given to understand they're not so hot on full auto.

Not to hot on FA? We have our own FA club at the AGC! We have some of the most active FA shooting around at the AGC.

Mike OTDP said:
That's OK. FWIW, I would recommend investing in a suppressor. Keeping the noise level down makes full auto a lot more palatable to people on the edge.

Yeah but often Suppressors make the FA shooting a lot less fun as you breath gas. I know I don't use my Suppressor often.

blksniper2000 said:
The only time you can shoot full auto at the agc is when the Thompson club holds machine shoots, they have them on a pretty consistent basis though

We have at least two shoots a month (except in winter) and often 3 a month. We have 50, 100 and 200 yard MG shoots. You will run out of money or ammo before you come to all our shoots.

5.56blaster said:
Don't forget ammo ain't cheap. Its expensive to get that machine gun smile.

Shoot more, less often... all works out

erwos · Nov 25, 2014

IMBLITZVT said:
Not too hot on FA? We have our own FA club at the AGC! We have some of the most active FA shooting around at the AGC.

To me, being FA friendly means I can shoot whenever I want. I respect that AGC has gotten better about it, but I can't make my schedule revolve around when the range feels like its a nice day to go full-auto.

I've been deluged with local offers, and some of them were not bad, so I think if the bonuses come through, I'll be going in. Can I do a FTF using a form 4?

IMBLITZVT · Nov 25, 2014

erwos said:
To me, being FA friendly means I can shoot whenever I want. I respect that AGC has gotten better about it, but I can't make my schedule revolve around when the range feels like its a nice day to go full-auto.

I've been deluged with local offers, and some of them were not bad, so I think if the bonuses come through, I'll be going in. Can I do a FTF using a form 4?

You know I use to think that was my ultimate goal at the AGC. Walk up and shoot MGs. However having a set time is not bad and it has forced us together as a real club. I have shot 34 different types of MGs, not including variations, at the AGC and only 3 were mine. If you walk up and shoot, you miss all that. How often can you shoot next to a guy with 3 Maxims or 8 BARs? Almost every one of our shoots! It is more restrictive but being a club shoot puts you together with people who REALLY know guns. That said I do understand. However I think you might do well to come check one out before writing us off.

Yes you can do a Form 4 FTF in MD. I did with my M11 actually. Just submit the paperwork and wait. Just make sure you drive out of state for the Mags if any come. Or take them apart.

erwos · Dec 3, 2014

Alright, so it sounds like the bonuses may be coming in sooner than later. Yay! This means I need to firm up a pricing strategy.

From what I can tell, M11/9s are usually running $4500-$5000 these days. Are people usually costing the Lage stuff at retail value? I see a lot of kinda nutty ads on Sturm and Subguns where it seems like people are trying to get way higher than retail on their Lage uppers, which seems a bit crazy to me. Same on mags and such.

Do the Sten gun conversions really add value at this point? I could almost see paying for an Uzi mag conversion, but Sten mags don't seem much easier to get than M11 mags.

I suppose I should take the Sturm and Subguns prices with a grain of salt, I've heard they're, at best, a starting point for negotiations.

bobthefisher · Dec 3, 2014

You're on the right track my friend. As far as sten and uzi mag well conversions, it's up to the individual. If you have a bunch of uzi and sten mags, then it might be worth it. However, if you don't, then just get a M11/9mm at the cheapest stock price you can possibly find. Get lots and lots of pictures before buying, and if possible inspect it in person for bad welds (less likely in the Cobray M11/9mm). You can always get the mag well converted after the fact if you so choose. Also there's one company coming out with new production metal M11 mags, so it might become a moot point. I would get a new Lage upper, that way you can still play around with the stock upper, which I still like firing once in a while. It's fun! and that's the whole point, having fun with a crazy bullet hose 9mm subgun.

Abacab · Dec 3, 2014

I have seen SWD M11/9s getting bids of 6000 to a high of 7k on gunbroker these days. Whether they actually paid the seller I don't know.

rdc · Dec 3, 2014

erwos said:
Alright, so it sounds like the bonuses may be coming in sooner than later. Yay! This means I need to firm up a pricing strategy.

From what I can tell, M11/9s are usually running $4500-$5000 these days. Are people usually costing the Lage stuff at retail value? I see a lot of kinda nutty ads on Sturm and Subguns where it seems like people are trying to get way higher than retail on their Lage uppers, which seems a bit crazy to me. Same on mags and such.

Do the Sten gun conversions really add value at this point? I could almost see paying for an Uzi mag conversion, but Sten mags don't seem much easier to get than M11 mags.

I suppose I should take the Sturm and Subguns prices with a grain of salt, I've heard they're, at best, a starting point for negotiations.

My wife sold her M11 last year. The guy who bought it got his Lage upper before the stamp came back but it took a while. I'm guessing people are charging a premium for them because you won't wait. I'd just order one the day you buy the gun and pay normal retail.

IMBLITZVT · Dec 3, 2014

erwos said:
From what I can tell, M11/9s are usually running $4500-$5000 these days. Are people usually costing the Lage stuff at retail value?

Seems about what I have been seeing. New Lage stuff will add near retail to it I would think as there is a bit of a waiting list some times. At least like 80% value I would say.

I see a lot of kinda nutty ads on Sturm and Subguns where it seems like people are trying to get way higher than retail on their Lage uppers, which seems a bit crazy to me. Same on mags and such.

There was like a year back order on some of this stuff at points. So people ge the idea they can charge a lot more. However some guys are still marking stuff Pre-Ban on Pre-AWB guns...

Do the Sten gun conversions really add value at this point? I could almost see paying for an Uzi mag conversion, but Sten mags don't seem much easier to get than M11 mags.

To me the Sten Mag conversion is a -$500 as I am going to have to pay to get it undone and then its not original and you have the issues with it. Frankly unless it was a great deal, I would personally pass on a Sten mag conversion given there are so much better opinions now. Uzi mags are nice on like a M10/9. However I would check with Lage to see if thats going to cause issues before going that way. Uzi mags are nice but only if it not going to cause issues with the Lage upper. If so, then I would skip mag conversion and get the Lage Upper. To me the upper is not an option.

P.S. I really hate sten mags. You MUST have a loader to use them. I understand why they did it back then but its a bad option today IMHO.

I suppose I should take the Sturm and Subguns prices with a grain of salt, I've heard they're, at best, a starting point for negotiations.

No they are real guns for sale. You always have people asking high prices but if you don't see them relisting, they are probably selling. GB can also give you some idea in looking in the completed auctions.

Abacab said:
I have seen SWD M11/9s getting bids of 6000 to a high of 7k on gunbroker these days. Whether they actually paid the seller I don't know.

I would assume they are getting paid for unless you see them relisted or its the same seller/buyer every time.

rdc said:
My wife sold her M11 last year. The guy who bought it got his Lage upper before the stamp came back but it took a while. I'm guessing people are charging a premium for them because you won't wait. I'd just order one the day you buy the gun and pay normal retail.

Yeah me too. I would not pay more for it.

Buying an M11/9 - what to look for?

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