"Two to the chest, one to the head" Really?

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  • mercop

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    Jan 7, 2008
    1,523
    SW PA
    Anyone who has been around any kind of pistol training has heard this one. But try as I might, I am unable to find a documented situation where a law enforcement officer or citizen has accomplished it with a pistol.

    For years the FBI has told us that police involved shootings take place at 3-5 feet in 3-5 seconds with 3-5 rounds fired. Of course this information is much harder to gather for shootings involving citizens, but let’s just say for the sake of argument that they are close to the same numbers.

    Here is our setting; our good guy is approached by a bad guy in a parking lot. The BG tries to rob him at knife point from say 10 feet away. Our GG is able to draw his concealed pistol, fire two rounds to the chest, and then consciously transition to the head. The BG is no doubt going to be moving in some way in reaction to the furtive action of the GG drawing his pistol.

    If this is accomplished, I have two questions for the GG-

    1) Have you received firearms training and did it involve you training to fire two rounds to the chest and one to the head?

    2) Did you consciously fire two rounds at the chest and then consciously transition to the head for the last shot”?
    I set our GG up for success. The BG is not running at him or shooting at him and is twice the distance where we understand these encounters to occur.

    Over the last 8-10 years, I have been doing extensive force on force training using airsoft with police and citizens. I would guess that all of the police at some time in their career have been taught “two to the chest and one to the head”. For the citizens, it is a mixed bag of previous training so I won’t ponder a guess as to who has been taught that.
    A conservative estimate of how many had been involved in previous force on force training would be about 30% for the police, with the majority using Simmunitons. That is problematic since according to Simmunations safety protocol you cannot shoot within 7 yards. You know where shootings actually occur. For the citizens, I would say it is less than 5%.

    Here are some common observations during a spontaneous “gunfight” that starts from furtive movement and not a buzzer or whistle-

    No shooters reported being able to close one eye during the fight.

    No shooters reported being able to “use” their sights.

    Shooters report firing the majority of their rounds before their gun was between their eyes and the threat, making it physically impossible to use the sights.

    Some students reported being able to “see” their sights towards the end of the fight.

    The majority of rounds struck the BG in the torso, many struck the hands and arms because they were holding the weapon between their torso and the other shooter.

    We have had a few head shots. Several have been contact shots or close to it. I have never had a student say that they purposely aimed for the head after putting two rounds in the chest.

    In the past, some detractors of mine have stated that my students not being able to make these head shots are a reflection on my instruction. That is impossible because I don’t teach head shots at all. Actually, I believe quite the opposite is true. The people who turn up at MCS classes are motived enough to spend valuable time and money training. There is no way of knowing, but I think that they are the in the minority when it comes to those who carry firearms and their amount of training. As described earlier, less that 5% of the citizens have previous force on force training.

    Something else that is unfortunately common in all things is throwing the dart and then drawing a bulls eye around it. For example, I have a close friend who shot and killed a robbery suspect when the suspect drew down on him. My buddy fired several shots using vertical tracking, the last of which center punched the suspect right between the eyes. My buddy, an academy classmate of mine, is an excellent shooter, but when I asked about the shooting he could only say that he started shooting low and tracked up. Several people would tell others, except internal affairs, that the last round went right where they aimed.

    This I believe is where the familiar “two to the chest, one to the head” mantra came from. I know it was originally started by Col Cooper after hearing about a shooting overseas. If someone knows more, let me know. Please also let me know if the Col was involved in any force on force training. I am not trying to be disrespectful, but there are a lot of things I can pull off on the square range against cardboard that I would not try on the street much less teach.

    I am also looking for stories within the US of officers or citizens, after being trained to do so, actually fired “two to the chest, and one to the head” with a pistol.
     

    Markp

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 22, 2008
    9,392
    I know that quite a few people have pulled off two to the chest... The one to the head though, that's just an after the fact execution.
     

    OLM-Medic

    Banned
    BANNED!!!
    May 5, 2010
    6,588
    Center mass and don't stop shooting until they are no longer a threat. That's the way I practice.
     

    Af_catfish

    Abandon All Hope
    Sep 6, 2011
    261
    Bremen, Ohio
    When I qualified on the M9 the instructors taught us two to the chest, one to the head. I've heard of a Security Forces guy who had to shoot someone did exactly that. There was some talk over whether he used excessive force, but since that's how he was trained he didn't get in trouble. It may just be hearsay though.
     

    Dogabutila

    Ultimate Member
    Dec 21, 2010
    2,359
    COM and keep going until they fall down or run away.

    The original thing happened when a student of Cooper was helping to defend an airfield or something. He turned the corner and there was a guy on the other team, so he went double tap to COM as taught. Student guy was bringing his gun down because he thought it was over, and the baddie was bringing his gun back up because his body armor saved him. So student guy shoots him in the head.

    I think we need to recognize that the FTS drill is really only for when people won't respond to COM hits in rapid succession. As happened originally, the COM hits had no effect due to body armor so he had to shoot somewhere that would. The key here is after an assessment. As originally taught, there was a gap between the doubletap and the head shot. When people practice it now they just try to do it as fast as possible and forget the reasoning behind the drill.

    If you did it like in the video clip going to the head while the guy is falling... you're probably in jail for murder. If you do it automatically, you're going to get in trouble. The only reason to do it is if you determine that for some reason COM hits won't work and you are forced to.

    The only way I can think of this applying to normal civvies is if they get confronted by somebody so drugged up they aren't going to respond "regularly" or "normally" when shot. You're def doing the right thing teaching COM, COM, COM. Realistically speaking, this is what is going to need to happen. I do hope though, that people are grown enough to play by big boy rules and realize when they are in a special situation where the 99% of what they train isn't applicable and take corrective action.

    That's all the drill was for. To help people realize that even though they train COM 24/7 that there are instances where it might be appropriate to shoot elsewhere. And now it's morphed into this other thing that would just land people in hot water.
     

    Huckleberry

    No One of Consequence
    MDS Supporter
    Oct 19, 2007
    23,307
    Severn & Lewes
    People are failing to understand the purpose and mechanics of the Mozambique Drill or Failure Drill by Jeff Cooper

    This drill like the El Presidente and others are designed to get the shooters head in the game. To think while you're in the Red and not succumb to tunnel vision or stress shutdown. To finish the gunfight first and not give a BG a 2nd chance to kill you.

    Also, this is a DRILL, not a combat philosophy. In Combat, you win your gunfight by all means possible. To quote John Connor, "You don't stop shooting when you think the other guy is dead. You stop shooting when you convinced the other guy that he is dead."

    First, the mechanics are not 2 Shots COM and 1 Head Shot in succesive order. No Bang-Bang-Bang

    The first two shots are intended to be a Double Tap. Putting two rounds on the same point of aim. No fliching or pulling your shots. Pure Technique Bang-Bang and hopefully, one big hole in the BG.

    Then you pause to see the placement and effects of your DT on your adversary. Does he drop dead or is he still on his feet and in the fight?

    Still on his feet, you switch to a aimed headshot. Using marksmanship and your front sight to drop your BG. Changing mindset is tough enough but here you're also changing your style of engagement and mental focus which is a big brain activity under stress.

    Now this drill was not invented due to body armor. It was invented due to the comabt effectiveness of 9mm NATO Ball ammo on an individual, especially due to poor shot placement and the target being able to absorb the damage from his GSW. You can spin it if you like to include body armor or the BG so hopped up on drugs that he ain't feeling the pain you're inflicting on his ass to make it interesting but I think the original comabat engagement was a guy with his BHP and wondering why he couldn't drop a skinny while said skinny was continuing to get closer with his AK47.

    Anyway, it is just a drill to get you to switch between skill and presicision shooting. Nothing more, Nothing less.
     

    Midgettem1

    Jarhead
    Jun 7, 2011
    566
    NOVA
    We shoot the failure to stop drills/ Mozambique drill on table 2 shooting in the Marine Corps. To my knowledge, it's only been incorporated as formal training on the rifle range, but I could be mistaken. My only experiences with it was pre-deployment training and my most recent trip to the range with my reserve unit. I imagine grunt units and other specialized units have more a intensive regimen.
     

    BradMacc82

    Ultimate Member
    Industry Partner
    Aug 17, 2011
    26,177
    I could be wrong here, but the whole '2 to the chest and 1 to the head' originated with Britain's SAS, as former SAS member's during interviews would always reference it and remark that's how they trained in live-fire kill-houses.

    All I know is I go COM and don't stop till the threat ceases.
     

    rpker

    Ultimate Member
    Jun 26, 2009
    2,577
    Charles County
    I've heard it over and over again but I have never been able to pull it off. The closest I ever came was during a FATS scenario. Put two dead center in the chest of a guy with a gun. White shirt, dark background I didn't even have to think about it; pistol came out and up and without even using the sights I would have splattered ol boy's heart across the room. Problem was he was a good guy in the scenario...all well, at least it was training.

    Anyway the point of the story is this, if you have time to aim you have to much time. Something ain't right. Two plus one has been around so long that a lawyer worth his salt will call it an execution.
     

    2ndCharter

    Based dude w/ lovin' hands
    MDS Supporter
    Apr 19, 2011
    4,794
    Eastern Shore
    When I qualified on the M9 the instructors taught us two to the chest, one to the head. I've heard of a Security Forces guy who had to shoot someone did exactly that. There was some talk over whether he used excessive force, but since that's how he was trained he didn't get in trouble. It may just be hearsay though.

    This is the stuff urban legends are made of. I heard the same thing about a decade before the Security Forces got their new name. Who knows though, it might have some truth to it or it could be concocted to drill a point home in training.

    So here's a good question that relates to your post and that of the original poster. Regardless of the training you've received, civilian or on the job, what are the opportunities created for civil action by not following the training methodology you have received. For instance, if a specific defensive class teaches double-tap COM and you've taken this course and none other. At some point in the future you get into a situation where you are forced to defend yourself and you either don't double-tap (3+ or worse, until empty) or rounds stray off COM. I'm sure some of it can be explained away from a moving, aggressive individual vs. paper at 15m, but think about this. Could you be accountable for not following your training?

    I know, battered gun owner's syndrome....
     

    joppaj

    Sheepdog
    Staff member
    Moderator
    Apr 11, 2008
    46,452
    MD
    I've always viewed it as something to get my brain going if I'm hitting my target center mass and it's not working. Of course running for better cover or a better weapon should probably also figure in to these plans and I don't practice that.
     

    racinghoss

    Missing Alaska
    Nov 3, 2008
    1,567
    People are failing to understand the purpose and mechanics of the Mozambique Drill or Failure Drill by Jeff Cooper

    This drill like the El Presidente and others are designed to get the shooters head in the game. To think while you're in the Red and not succumb to tunnel vision or stress shutdown. To finish the gunfight first and not give a BG a 2nd chance to kill you.

    Also, this is a DRILL, not a combat philosophy. In Combat, you win your gunfight by all means possible. To quote John Connor, "You don't stop shooting when you think the other guy is dead. You stop shooting when you convinced the other guy that he is dead."

    First, the mechanics are not 2 Shots COM and 1 Head Shot in succesive order. No Bang-Bang-Bang

    The first two shots are intended to be a Double Tap. Putting two rounds on the same point of aim. No fliching or pulling your shots. Pure Technique Bang-Bang and hopefully, one big hole in the BG.

    Then you pause to see the placement and effects of your DT on your adversary. Does he drop dead or is he still on his feet and in the fight?

    Still on his feet, you switch to a aimed headshot. Using marksmanship and your front sight to drop your BG. Changing mindset is tough enough but here you're also changing your style of engagement and mental focus which is a big brain activity under stress.

    Now this drill was not invented due to body armor. It was invented due to the comabt effectiveness of 9mm NATO Ball ammo on an individual, especially due to poor shot placement and the target being able to absorb the damage from his GSW. You can spin it if you like to include body armor or the BG so hopped up on drugs that he ain't feeling the pain you're inflicting on his ass to make it interesting but I think the original comabat engagement was a guy with his BHP and wondering why he couldn't drop a skinny while said skinny was continuing to get closer with his AK47.

    Anyway, it is just a drill to get you to switch between skill and presicision shooting. Nothing more, Nothing less.

    Good post.

    As of 1995, the USMC Security Forces school taught this. I think my instructors coined it the "Failure to Stop Drill". They even went so far as to tell us to drop to a knee if possible for the head shot. We ran hundreds of drills on the range. It is simply a marksmanship and training tool; although it could be useful when you have an armored/PCP'd/etc bad guy closing in on you and/or your post. We trained lots of different marksmanship and reaction drills, this was just one of many.
     

    cowboy321

    Active Member
    Apr 21, 2009
    554
    I know that quite a few people have pulled off two to the chest... The one to the head though, that's just an after the fact execution.

    Correct....Shooting someone in the head who has two bullets in his chest creates a great plaintiff to take every penny you have ever owned. He only has a knife and has not stabbed you, right?

    In most states this could be second degree murder, or first degree if he Is laying on his back bleeding when you plug his head and that darn security camera is running. Plus Thou Shalt Not Kill...
     

    Jackson923

    Hell Yeah!
    Jan 25, 2008
    1,942
    Harford Co
    What is being taught now in some defensive classes is just that, 1. because of body armor, 2. because of drug induced attackers. A defensive course that I just took recently had this as one of the drills, two to the torso, one to either the head or pelvic girdle, even though we were under limited stress it seemed to work fine for those participating in this drill, don't know how it will under a stressful situation but it's one that I practiced and have continued on my own to practice. I'm certainly not advocating it for everyone, but like anything else you react to what you know and what is repetative for you. My thought is that if I'm defending my home from someone who has entered it uninvited I will shoot until I feel the threat is neutralized, and I will not worry about what my round count is, but I will stop once I feel that I am no longer threatened or my family is no longer in danger. Sorry just my $.02 and I didn't read every post in this thread.
     

    Name Taken

    Ultimate Member
    Feb 23, 2010
    11,891
    Central
    I've always viewed it as something to get my brain going if I'm hitting my target center mass and it's not working. .


    I think there is value in just that.

    If you are pumping rounds COM and not getting an any results it might be time to move onto another target. At that point you should almost be contacting shooting your attacker as they are likely still advancing if your COM shots havent ended the situation.

    There is also a small chance of body armor.

    It also brings up that the shooter needs to know their limits. I know where I'm comfortable attempting a "head shot" and when it's outside of my range.

    I think it has some merit in police/security training to get your mind out of the "fire 2 shots holster" mentality that some get with their qualifications.
     

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