Universal Background Checks for gun purchases

Armati · Nov 28, 2015

Applehd said:
I believe it has already been mentioned, but I will highlight it once again... this is already being accomplished by way of the HQL... now to re-word the statute to reflect same...

Nope. We got nothing with HQL. No CCW, no reciprocity.

And that is my point. "They" shaped the debate and gave you the law. This notion that we should do nothing is only going to ensure new laws will be passed against you.

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Applehd · Nov 28, 2015

Applehd said:
...now to re-word the statute to reflect same...

Armati said:
Nope. We got nothing with HQL. No CCW, no reciprocity...

See my quote... not that it would be easy or even doable in Dem. Md...

MigraineMan · Nov 28, 2015

Applehd said:
I believe it has already been mentioned, but I will highlight it once again... this is already being accomplished by way of the HQL... now to re-word the statute to reflect same...

No ... I was suggesting that everyone be issued a Militia Card at age of ascension. You don't have to take a class, or demonstrate proficiency with arms ... as you already have your inalienable rights. This is just verification that you haven't done something to have your rights curtailed through legal/court action. The HQL works in the opposite direction - you are denied your rights until you jump through hoops and pay fees to demonstrate that you should be allowed to exercise them.

T'Challa · Nov 28, 2015

Armati said:
Nope. We got nothing with HQL. No CCW, no reciprocity.

And that is my point. "They" shaped the debate and gave you the law. This notion that we should do nothing is only going to ensure new laws will be passed against you.

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I should know this, but a friend asked me. Do you need an HQL to purchase a handgun firearm online out of state and have it shipped back to Maryland? I said you need one, he thinks that you don't. I told him you don't need a HQL well for a long gun but you do need one for handguns , even if you pay out of state and ship back. What say you?

DC-W · Nov 28, 2015

T'Challa said:
I should know this, but a friend asked me. Do you need an HQL to purchase a handgun firearm online out of state and have it shipped back to Maryland? I said you need one, he thinks that you don't. I told him you don't need a HQL well for a long gun but you do need one for handguns , even if you pay out of state and ship back. What say you?

You are correct.

swinokur · Nov 28, 2015

The out of state purchase will be sent to a MD FFL, who by law cannot transfer the gun to you w/o an HQL.

So you are correct.

Armati · Nov 28, 2015

MigraineMan said:
No ... I was suggesting that everyone be issued a Militia Card at age of ascension. You don't have to take a class, or demonstrate proficiency with arms ... as you already have your inalienable rights.

At this point, I would encourage everyone to fire up the Googles and read the MD Militia Law. Then re-read it - especially as it relates to the Unorganized Militia.

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T'Challa · Nov 28, 2015

Any militia worth joining?

Minuteman · Nov 28, 2015

Armati said:
At this point, I would encourage everyone to fire up the Googles and read the MD Militia Law. Then re-read it - especially as it relates to the Unorganized Militia.

You mean this? http://msa.maryland.gov/msa/mdmanual/43const/html/09art9.html

Fairly meaningless today at first glance; please do tell.

Armati · Nov 28, 2015

Minuteman said:
... at first glance...

The laziness of our side is the reason we are where we are today.

Like I said. Read it. The whole thing, then read it again.

Right now, at this moment, there are forces working on new and innovative way to take your rights away. How much energy are you willing to put in to defending them?

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Minuteman · Nov 28, 2015

Armati said:
The laziness of our side is the reason we are where we are today.

Like I said. Read it. The whole thing, then read it again.

Right now, at this moment, there are forces working on new and innovative way to take your rights away. How much energy are you willing to put in to defending them?

Just want to make sure you are referring to this:

ARTICLE IX

MILITIA AND MILITARY AFFAIRS.

SECTION 1. The General Assembly shall make, from time to time, such provisions for organizing, equipping and disciplining the Militia, as the exigency may require, and pass such Laws to promote Volunteer Militia organizations as may afford them effectual encouragement.

SEC. 2. There shall be an Adjutant-General, appointed by the Governor, by and with the advice and consent of the Senate. He shall hold his office until the appointment and qualification of his successor, or until removed in pursuance of the sentence of a Court Martial. He shall perform such duties, and receive such compensation, or emoluments, as are now, or may be prescribed by Law. He shall discharge the duties of his office at the seat of Government, unless absent, under orders, on duty; and no other officer of the General Staff of the Militia shall receive salary or pay, except when on service, and mustered in with troops.

Mike · Nov 29, 2015

gprimr1 said:
But is everyone savvy enough to find the black market? Determined enough? It's easy to say "oh they will just get a gun" but does every one know where to find an illegal gun? Is a street dealer going to trust a clean cut white boy or is he gonna think he's a UC?

You are right. You can never stop someone who is hell bent on getting a gun and hurting themselves or others, they will adapt and find a way.

But that doesn't cover everyone. And you must consider not every criminal is smart. Some will be dumb enough to try to buy a gun and fail the BC. This provides an opening for LE to intervene.

IMO, an instant background check doesn't place an undue burden on the right. I think we miss opportunities to build good will when we say "ehh, a criminal might find a way around so why bother?"

There are options that protect the right while protecting public safety.

Why can't I access my file on NICS? Why can't I print out a certificate saying I am able to buy a firearm? Not one that says I bought one, just one that says I can.

Why can't we just code it into our DL's for everyone?

Armati said:
I hope to give a more detailed concept latter, but in short, image a guy carries something along the lines of a Militia ID. He can buy, own, and carry firearms. IDs are issued by individual states. UBC is met. CCW is met.

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Minuteman said:
Good start.

Well, right now we have that, people with HQL's have been cleared. Folks with active and retired military and police ID don't need an HQL to buy a gun. People with CCW cards from other states you know are already cleared. Not sure we need UBC.

MigraineMan said:
You do present ID when you vote (at least here in Maryland.) You have to state your name, out loud, to the election officials. That's an opportunity for your neighbors to chime in and say "Hey, that's not John. Q. Public!" and challenge your identity. (This works better in small towns.) Not a tremendously robust method of identification, but you do identify yourself.

The problem occurs when we have laws that say "You, Mr. Felon, are prohibited from owning firearms." At that point, you now have two classes of citizens - prohibited and non-prohibited.

The Militia Card is an interesting concept. Issue one to everyone at the age of ascension - on their 18th birthday. You've got it, and can demonstrate "non-prohibited" status without pesky electronic data collection oversight. With an appropriate conviction, the courts take it from you. If it expires, you perform the background investigation once to renew, not on each instance of a potential purchase or transfer.

Applehd said:
I believe it has already been mentioned, but I will highlight it once again... this is already being accomplished by way of the HQL... now to re-word the statute to reflect same...

MigraineMan said:
No ... I was suggesting that everyone be issued a Militia Card at age of ascension. You don't have to take a class, or demonstrate proficiency with arms ... as you already have your inalienable rights. This is just verification that you haven't done something to have your rights curtailed through legal/court action. The HQL works in the opposite direction - you are denied your rights until you jump through hoops and pay fees to demonstrate that you should be allowed to exercise them.

In a story line on the show Fringe, they could not even board a city bus without the "show me card".
http://www.fringepedia.net/wiki/Parallel_Universehttp://www.fringepedia.net/wiki/Parallel_Universe

Just like the Social Security Number has become ubiquitous and a source of much fraud, are we sure we want to advocate for what would essentially become a national identity card? If it became tied to our banking and our identity it would be another source of fraud. We need to get the 2A to be unregulated. Bad guys already have guns. Stop prohibiting the law abiding citizens from obtaining them too, and stop trying to turn law abiding citizens into criminals because we want to own firearms. Focus on the massive failure of the GFZ concept and the fact the welfare is just another way to buy votes.

Applehd · Nov 29, 2015

Mike said:
.

Buy that man a beer... :beer:

MigraineMan · Nov 29, 2015

Mike said:
In a story line on the show Fringe, they could not even board a city bus without the "show me card".
http://www.fringepedia.net/wiki/Parallel_Universehttp://www.fringepedia.net/wiki/Parallel_Universe

Just like the Social Security Number has become ubiquitous and a source of much fraud, are we sure we want to advocate for what would essentially become a national identity card? If it became tied to our banking and our identity it would be another source of fraud. We need to get the 2A to be unregulated. Bad guys already have guns. Stop prohibiting the law abiding citizens from obtaining them too, and stop trying to turn law abiding citizens into criminals because we want to own firearms. Focus on the massive failure of the GFZ concept and the fact the welfare is just another way to buy votes.

If you want the 2A to be unregulated, you need to get rid of the "prohibited persons" class. Incarcerate them or kill them, I don't care, but as long as you have this distinction, there needs to be a means to tell them apart. (I don't see this level of sweeping change happening in my lifetime.)

TheBert · Nov 29, 2015

Mike said:
We need to get the 2A to be unregulated. Bad guys already have guns. Stop prohibiting the law abiding citizens from obtaining them too, and stop trying to turn law abiding citizens into criminals because we want to own firearms. Focus on the massive failure of the GFZ concept and the fact the welfare is just another way to buy votes.

MDFF2008 · Nov 29, 2015

Mike said:
http://vignette1.wiki We need to get the 2A to be unregulated. Bad guys already have guns. Stop prohibiting the law abiding citizens from obtaining them too, and stop trying to turn law abiding citizens into criminals because we want to own firearms. Focus on the massive failure of the GFZ concept and the fact the welfare is just another way to buy votes.[/QUOTE]

I agree focusing on the failure of GFZ is important. Conflating the issue with welfare will get you nowhere. There are honest people on welfare, gun owners on welfare, and there are welfare queens.

As for the part of deregulating the 2A, I think that's a losing proposition when you leave the 2A circle. Yes, bad guys have guns, but again, you make the mistake of assuming every single person is a smart criminal, street savvy enough to find guns illegally.

I don't believe a simple background check stops law abiding citizens from exercising their rights. I also don't believe in putting all your eggs in one basket. Even in places where CCW is permitted, there is no guarantee a person will be there, nor is there a guarantee they will be able to stop the problem, nor is there a guarantee a background check will stop a person.

But when you put them all together, they can be useful at preventing violence.

rrankin · Nov 29, 2015

Armati said:
Nope. We got nothing with HQL. No CCW, no reciprocity.

And that is my point. "They" shaped the debate and gave you the law. This notion that we should do nothing is only going to ensure new laws will be passed against you.

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I don't have a big problem with HQL I just think if you go though the expenses and time that it should be all that is needed when you go to buy a gun and that there should not be any waiting period just pay and go that is just my two cents.

MDFF2008 · Nov 29, 2015

rrankin said:
I don't have a big problem with HQL I just think if you go though the expenses and time that it should be all that is needed when you go to buy a gun and that there should not be any waiting period just pay and go that is just my two cents.

For me, the HQL would be tolerable if it was free.

swinokur · Nov 29, 2015

and eliminated the 7 day wait. how many times do you need to be vetted?

sheesh

MigraineMan · Nov 29, 2015

swinokur said:
and eliminated the 7 day wait. how many times do you need to be vetted?

sheesh

As many times as it takes to discourage you from purchasing another "weapon of war."

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