MSP being ridiculous about my CCW app: Appeal Sent In!

Sirex · Jun 20, 2015

I recall hearing on Dateline or 20/20 how dangerous it is being a realtor, especially female. When my wife and I were looking at homes, the first few times we met our realtor her husband was with her. Didn't bother us, but I had never really thought about how dangerous it could be. I hope you get your CCW straightened out.

mtnwisdom · Jun 20, 2015

Not sure I understand your dilemma... Please no offense offered, but if you are always on call then you are conducting business, correct?

The permit seems vague and in so doing, It would err to you. Talking a phone call about a listing is conducting business.... No matter where you were taking/making that call.

When I teach the class, I tell participants that they will be writing their restrictions when they complete the application. It would appear that you did a very good job.

No one gets an unrestricted permit, ex LEO & PI, but with your occupation, your permit sure looks liberal for Maryland.

Again, no offense intended. Like you, and everyone else-I would love to see Md become shall issue but till then....

Stoveman · Jun 20, 2015

mtnwisdom said:
Not sure I understand your dilemma... Please no offense offered, but if you are always on call then you are conducting business, correct?

The permit seems vague and in so doing, It would err to you. Talking a phone call about a listing is conducting business.... No matter where you were taking/making that call.

When I teach the class, I tell participants that they will be writing their restrictions when they complete the application. It would appear that you did a very good job.

No one gets an unrestricted permit, ex LEO & PI, but with your occupation, your permit sure looks liberal for Maryland.

Again, no offense intended. Like you, and everyone else-I would love to see Md become shall issue but till then....

I've always wondered about the "on call" portion of work and how it pertains to the standard business owner restrictions.

With my business I get calls about work all the time, nights and weekends included. I got a call this afternoon while I was at my son's baseball game with the answer to an issue we are having at a job we were at on Friday and will be again on Monday. Customer called to give me an answer on some parts needed so we can take them with us to the jobsite.

I also get calls that require me to make a trip to XYZ Restaurant to replace a broken faucet or change out filters on machines. These type of calls especially happen on weekends because the supply houses are closed.

montoya32 · Jun 20, 2015

mtnwisdom said:
Not sure I understand your dilemma... Please no offense offered, but if you are always on call then you are conducting business, correct?

The permit seems vague and in so doing, It would err to you. Talking a phone call about a listing is conducting business.... No matter where you were taking/making that call.

When I teach the class, I tell participants that they will be writing their restrictions when they complete the application. It would appear that you did a very good job.

No one gets an unrestricted permit, ex LEO & PI, but with your occupation, your permit sure looks liberal for Maryland.

Again, no offense intended. Like you, and everyone else-I would love to see Md become shall issue but till then....

Absolutely no offense taken. I really don't have a "dilemma". While you see the vagueness a benefit to me, I can see where it could be used against me. What if I am working, and then decide to attend an event of function immediately afterwards? Am I required to leave my firearm in my vehicle, which I deem unsafe? If while at work, am I able to carry while I take a lunch break? I think I know the answers to these questions, but the IS some room for interpretation.

Mark75H · Jun 21, 2015

I always loved the common FFL restriction: "May carry while transporting firearms"

ras_oscar · Jun 21, 2015

You'll be lucky if you are even invited to at your appeal hearing.

doofoo · Jun 21, 2015

Mark75H said:
I always loved the common FFL restriction: "May carry while transporting firearms"

Simple solution!

Only one's for business..

babalooie21204 · Jun 21, 2015

pretty sure all the lawyer expenses should be fully deductible

HeatSeeker · Jun 22, 2015

I don't understand why your restriction is any different than anyone else who has used their job as G&S. Anyone that uses employment as G&S gets restricted to carrying while working. After all that is the reason you gave for needing the permit. You are basically appealing to argue for an unrestricted permit, but possibly should be content with just getting the permit you got. You are now arguing about being successful.

montoya32 · Jun 22, 2015

HeatSeeker said:
I don't understand why your restriction is any different than anyone else who has used their job as G&S. Anyone that uses employment as G&S gets restricted to carrying while working. After all that is the reason you gave for needing the permit. You are basically appealing to argue for an unrestricted permit, but possibly should be content with just getting the permit you got. You are now arguing about being successful.

Not really. I am a business owner 24-7. If you see me out in public, can you determine if I am working or not? Neither can someone who may attempt to do me harm. There are some very obvious times when I am involved in a business activity, but most of the time it is not clear and can even be debated if what I am doing is considered a "business activity".

My appeal is not 100% aimed at getting "me" an unrestricted permit. I am doing this for the advancement and education of the community as a whole.

Not necessarily you, Heatseeker, but I am really surprised at those who seem to have some sort of issue with me doing this and are almost combative because I am attempting to press the issue for our rights. :shrug:

Minuteman · Jun 22, 2015

I didnt read entire thread.

There should be no restrictions.

I heard (I don't know if this is true), that the machine used to print the carry cards is essentially the same as for drivers licenses. On the software to create a drivers license (and now CCW permit), there's a box asking for any restrictions. Some well meaning, but ignorant person started putting arbitrary restrictions on CCW permits. When you read the law it doesn't say anything about restrictions just if you have a valid permit or not. Unfortunately if an officer is looking at it, they likely won't know the law and believe the restriction has some weight. Could cause an expensive and awkward trip down town.

Pro gun groups should be working to remove these restrictions. The MDSP superintendent could just tell the clerks to stop putting restrictions on permits. Problem solved.

redeemed.man · Jun 22, 2015

Minuteman said:
I didnt read entire thread.

There should be no restrictions.

I heard (I don't know if this is true), that the machine used to print the carry cards is essentially the same as for drivers licenses. On the software to create a drivers license (and now CCW permit), there's a box asking for any restrictions. Some well meaning, but ignorant person started putting arbitrary restrictions on CCW permits. When you read the law it doesn't say anything about restrictions just if you have a valid permit or not. Unfortunately if an officer is looking at it, they likely won't know the law and believe the restriction has some weight. Could cause an expensive and awkward trip down town.

Pro gun groups should be working to remove these restrictions. The MDSP superintendent could just tell the clerks to stop putting restrictions on permits. Problem solved.

COMAR specifically states the superintendent can place TPM restrictions. They existed long before the cards looked like drivers licenses. My original MD Handgun permit (1995) back when they were laminated yellow pieces of paper had an area for restrictions. It has nothing to do with drivers license machines or "well meaning but ignorant" people.

capinyoass · Jun 22, 2015

The public does not know that I am or am not working when they see me out and about.

You know. It's not about just working, it's about working in a vulnerable and/or dangerous situation. Showing a house by yourself @ 9pm in the "Hood" ...yes. Talking houses while your at a family picnic in a public park @ noon?......good luck.

Minuteman · Jun 22, 2015

Thanks for the background info. That's significantly different from what I heard. I'll try to share this with the instructor that I heard it from, it was a long while ago, probably a misunderstanding.

Schipperke · Jun 22, 2015

capinyoass said:
The public does not know that I am or am not working when they see me out and about.

You know. It's not about just working, it's about working in a vulnerable and/or dangerous situation. Showing a house by yourself @ 9pm in the "Hood" ...yes. Talking houses while your at a family picnic in a public park @ noon?......good luck.

This.

Like it or not, you get caught with your family at a ball game, party, or seeing the sights you go ahead and sell you were "on the job". Most self employed people can "try" making a claim they are always working. My wife closed a client at our community pool last weekend. Now that would be a trick carrying concealed at the pool

My father and I closed many clients on a golf course. I was at the "eatery" few weeks ago and a client saw me and asked me to pickup some work, was I on the job then?

CypherPunk · Jun 22, 2015

Minuteman said:
I didnt read entire thread.

There should be no restrictions.

I heard (I don't know if this is true), that the machine used to print the carry cards is essentially the same as for drivers licenses. On the software to create a drivers license (and now CCW permit), there's a box asking for any restrictions. Some well meaning, but ignorant person started putting arbitrary restrictions on CCW permits. When you read the law it doesn't say anything about restrictions just if you have a valid permit or not. Unfortunately if an officer is looking at it, they likely won't know the law and believe the restriction has some weight. Could cause an expensive and awkward trip down town.

Pro gun groups should be working to remove these restrictions. The MDSP superintendent could just tell the clerks to stop putting restrictions on permits. Problem solved.

Minuteman is right on.

I have a timeline of pictures of old Maryland handgun permits that I show when I give my Maryland Handgun Permit Seminar. They all have a place for restrictions.

The software version that was used with the MD's Fargo printers to make drivers licenses and handgun permits did have one troublesome issue - it use to only allowed up to a 3 year expiration date.

This was likely fixed on newer or latest version, only the state failed to upgrade or remain current.

USAFRavenR6 · Jun 22, 2015

I actually submitted my MD CCW package this past Saturday. While I own a business and do not feel as though I will have any issues obtaining a MD permit, I am also going the route of Montoya as in trying to get the most least restrictive permit possible through arguing the case that the restrictions are left up to interpretation. I will keep everyone updated when new info as I hear it. I understand that I will receive restrictions BUT the manner to which my G&S was written also uses info open to interpretation that would ultimately be my fall back in the event I had an issue while carrying.

montoya32 · Jun 22, 2015

USAFRavenR6 said:
I actually submitted my MD CCW package this past Saturday. While I own a business and do not feel as though I will have any issues obtaining a MD permit, I am also going the route of Montoya as in trying to get the most least restrictive permit possible through arguing the case that the restrictions are left up to interpretation. I will keep everyone updated when new info as I hear it. I understand that I will receive restrictions BUT the manner to which my G&S was written also uses info open to interpretation that would ultimately be my fall back in the event I had an issue while carrying.

montoya32 · Jun 22, 2015

Schipperke said:
This.

Like it or not, you get caught with your family at a ball game, party, or seeing the sights you go ahead and sell you were "on the job". Most self employed people can "try" making a claim they are always working. My wife closed a client at our community pool last weekend. Now that would be a trick carrying concealed at the pool My father and I closed many clients on a golf course. I was at the "eatery" few weeks ago and a client saw me and asked me to pickup some work, was I on the job then?

My point is that it is very much open to interpretation. Don't know why people have such an issue understanding this. If I am buying toner for my printer that I use to print contracts, is that a business activity? If I am taking a client out to dinner, is that a business activity? If I field a call on a lead from one of my properties, is that a business activity?

Schipperke · Jun 22, 2015

montoya32 said:
My point is that it is very much open to interpretation. Don't know why people have such an issue understanding this. If I am buying toner for my printer that I use to print contracts, is that a business activity? If I am taking a client out to dinner, is that a business activity? If I field a call on a lead from one of my properties, is that a business activity?

Because I've read what happened to others trying to spin they were carrying under their restrictions and ended up becoming prohibited from owning firearms. Most of this is an academic exercise anyway. If you know how to conceal a firearm whether permitted or not , what are the odds of being caught to even put the theory to the test.

MSP being ridiculous about my CCW app: Appeal Sent In!

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